[Matthew Lloyd]

This topic is inspired by two of the current threads attracting a lot of comments – Josh Tarble’s Kingsley-Crystal match play thread, and Michael Hendren’s thread discussing the generational bias in analyzing courses. 

The broad, overall question I’d like to pose – what do you think are the best “homages” in golf course design?

My way into this: in reading all of the posts on Kingsley v. Crystal, it made me reflect on a lot of the early writings about Kingsley describing it as a modern day descendant of Crystal given Mike DeVries’ connection to both courses, some overlapping membership, and the obvious geographical similarities. This is why I love both courses and haven’t understood some of the stronger opinions in promoting one course over the other.  I look at Kingsley as simply a modern day “sequel” to Crystal Downs.  Perhaps this is the reason it makes for such heated debate, but to me Crystal Downs enthusiasts should be thrilled that modern course borrowed from its blueprint to create such a fun and well regarded homage. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, after all.

This speaks to a post made by Mr. Doak on the generational bias thread: “We all tend to fall in love with a course that helps shape our opinions of golf architecture when we are relatively young.” My understanding is that Mike DeVries grew up playing at Crystal Downs, right?  If that is indeed the case then his inspiration for Kingsley is crystal clear, excuse the bad pun.

But I’ll get back to my general question – what are some other great golf course homages?

Or, if my premise is faulty, please explain why you think that’s the case.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Pete Dye and some bad mushrooms in the late 60's

[Mark Bourgeois]

NGLA for the UK
ANGC for TOC

[David_Tepper]

Not exactly sure if "homage" is the right word, but I know the design of Castle Stuart was influenced by Royal Dornoch & Cruden Bay.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Now serious.
I cannot speak for an architect and what they believe shaped their "style", but what I can say is what I feel when I play somebody's golf courses.
Whenever I paly a course that has ben designed by Tom Doak...I have played 8...I am always at some point in the round sent back to my homeland and links/heathland golf courses.
Usually I do not have to wait long into the round to get that warm fuzzy feeling of going home to get the jist of what Doak is trying to achieve.
At Ballyneal it is simply surveying the property from the clubhouse area, at Streamsong it looking down from the towering first tee to the design of the later green in front of you below{number 5?], but it is always there, the desire to allow different style of play to play the same course.
The few Norman courses I have played appear to be self homage, hit it high and long, but the self homage shouldnt be any great surprise for the architect involved.
Fazio courses although I dont understand the homage now appear to be homage to his own succesful formula of creating good if not great golf courses.

Oops it appears that I misread the original thread intent and was basing my thoughts along the architects body of work rather than a specific course.
I will have to work harder now to come up with an answer.

[Garland Bayley]

Slag Bandoon says Dan Hixson spent a lot of time studying Indian Canyon while he was doing Wine Valley. Not sure if he was attempting to do a homage though.

[Tom_Doak]

There are tons of these.  High Pointe had some of Crystal Downs in it, too.  [Not only was I spending a lot of time around the Downs those 2-3 years, but the superintendent Tom Mead came on board to work on High Pointe.]  Black Forest was an homage to the Thomas and MacKenzie bunkers of California; Pacific Dunes was an homage to all the links courses I'd seen.  Old Macdonald, duh.

I'm certainly not the first or last architect to do it.  World Woods (Pine Barrens) was a pretty tight homage to Pine Valley.  So is The Dunes Club.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Certainly some of the holes at Diamante have a Cypress Point look and feel, I dont know is messrs Cowley and Love have any cimment there?

[Bill_McBride]

Quote from Garland:

"Slag Bandoon says Dan Hixson spent a lot of time studying Indian Canyon while he was doing Wine Valley. Not sure if he was attempting to do a homage though."

I have only seen photos of Wine Valley, and last played the admirable Indian Canyon 52 years ago, but have say I can see zero resemblance.  WV appears to be in a meadow setting, while IC is heavily wooded with a lot of elevation change.  Not sure what the Slagster was smoking that day!

[Garland Bayley]

Bill,

Having played both Wine Valley and Indian Canyon, I would say that the elevation change on both are very similar, with the exception of only a couple of holes. I only wish Harbottle had taken the time to learn how to handle elevation change as well as Hixson did, and then maybe Palouse Ridge would be worth walking and playing.

[Frank Giordano]

Isn't the New Course at the Grand Cypress Resort in Orlando Jack Nicklaus' homage to the Old Course?  Whether or not it's a "great" course is, as always,  a subjective matter for the individual player there.  

[Chris Mavros]

Isn't the New Course at the Grand Cypress Resort in Orlando Jack Nicklaus' homage to the Old Course?  Whether or not it's a "great" course is, as always,  a subjective matter for the individual player there.  

It is.  I liked the course, but some of the homage aspects of it were a little kitchy.  Regardless, I thought it was a very generous Nicklaus design.

[RJ_Daley]

I believe I had read somewhere that Dye's Teeth of the Dog in the D.R. is an homage to the Monterey Peninsula if not actually to one of the two specific iconic courses of Pebble or Cypress.  And, I also remember Dye making comments when he built Whistling Straits that he had Ballybunion in mind in aspects of the inspiration.  

This makes me think about the two extremes of an architect having a piece of ground or property in a location that is very similar to another iconic course, and work with that as an homage to the older one.  But, what about an architect that has a non-discript sort of property, maybe even in a different climate, and tries to shape out and create a sense of place as an homage to the older iconic one.  How many times it that going to likely fail?    

[Tom_Doak]

I believe I had read somewhere that Dye's Teeth of the Dog in the D.R. is an homage to the Monterey Peninsula if not actually to one of the two specific iconic courses of Pebble or Cypress.  And, I also remember Dye making comments when he built Whistling Straits that he had Ballybunion in mind in aspects of the inspiration.  

This makes me think about the two extremes of an architect having a piece of ground or property in a location that is very similar to another iconic course, and work with that as an homage to the older one.  But, what about an architect that has a non-discript sort of property, maybe even in a different climate, and tries to shape out and create a sense of place as an homage to the older iconic one.  How many times it that going to likely fail?    

RJ:  The problem with ALL homages is that if you try to take them too far, you will generally fail to match the greatness of the original.  And just by going this direction, you close the door to other possibilities which might have better fit the site.  So, it's okay to think about an homage in the beginning, but you need to get with your own program pretty quickly after that.

Many of the courses at Mission Hills Hainan are done in different styles as an homage to this or that.  The one course called the Tradition is supposedly an homage to early American courses -- because they included a grab-bag of features like a church-pew bunker.  If Chinese golfers really come to believe the holes on that course are representative of great early American design, it will be a shame.

[Steve Salmen]

I think you could argue that every Donald Ross crowned green was/is a homage to his home course, Royal Dornoch.

[Chris DeToro]

I think it's really interesting that most of the homages, at least that have been stated in this thread, are either the classic links courses or the early 1900s vintage in the US. 

Is it too soon for the courses built in the 50s, 60s or more recent to be influential or are those earlier courses that much more deserving of replication?

[Steve Salmen]

I think it's really interesting that most of the homages, at least that have been stated in this thread, are either the classic links courses or the early 1900s vintage in the US. 

Is it too soon for the courses built in the 50s, 60s or more recent to be influential or are those earlier courses that much more deserving of replication?

Chris,

Off the top of your head, can you name some holes originally designed in the 50s or 60s that are worthy of a homage?  I'm not saying there are not, however, it's easier to find copy worthy holes from old links courses.

[Chris DeToro]

Maybe it is because there are more non-descript holes or holes that don't stand out in general, but even in general, I don't feel like we hear about the influence of architects such as RTJ or Dick Wilson and other post WWII guys

[Garland Bayley]

I think it's really interesting that most of the homages, at least that have been stated in this thread, are either the classic links courses or the early 1900s vintage in the US. 

Is it too soon for the courses built in the 50s, 60s or more recent to be influential or are those earlier courses that much more deserving of replication?

Chris,

Off the top of your head, can you name some holes originally designed in the 50s or 60s that are worthy of a homage?  I'm not saying there are not, however, it's easier to find copy worthy holes from old links courses.

It seems to me that they have been given homages pretty much constantly from the 50s and 60s on. Which leads Sean Leary to say, "If you've played a Fazio, you played all Fazios. That's why I don't travel to play Fazios."

[Chris DeToro]

You do make a good point about Fazio, but there are still others...

But I guess if we break this down logically, the classic links have been influencing architecture across time, so I guess it would make sense that a modern designer could skip other those years in the 50-60s because they were both influenced by the same era.  

[Keith Grande]

I would recommend Archtects Golf Club in Phillipsburg, NJ.  It's a Stephen Kay design based on 17 influential architects (Ross has 2 holes). 

[Tim_Weiman]

RJ Daley,

Before Whistling Straits opened I was excited by Dye's (or Kohler's) reference to Ballybunion, but then the starter ruined it for me on my first visit announcing that we should expect it to take 5-6 hours to play.

That certainly wasn't Ballybunion thinking!

I think Tom Doak is correct. Homages shouldn't be taken too far. Each course should stand on its own. Perhaps that's why I always had more respect for Black Wolf Run than Whistling Straits, the former was just itself not burdened by comparison to some other famous place.

[Chris DeToro]

RJ Daley,

Before Whistling Straits opened I was excited by Dye's (or Kohler's) reference to Ballybunion, but then the starter ruined it for me on my first visit announcing that we should expect it to take 5-6 hours to play.

That certainly wasn't Ballybunion thinking!

Yuck, I'm sorry that was your experience with Whistling Straits.  I actually went and had one of the first times on a beautiful June morning, played in about 4 hours, then zipped over to Blackwolf Run and didn't have much problem getting around there either.  

That was a mentally grueling day of golf however...

[Buck Wolter]

Isn't Muirfield Village an homage to Augusta National.

OT: Is it 'a homage' or 'an homage'?

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