[Tom_Doak]

I have to disagree here. Prestwick is a fantastic course... one of my very favorite hidden gems. And, it's Pete Dye, not PB... early Pete before he started trying so hard to outdo himself with each new course. PB's name is also on the course, but mainly to help get him going in the business and establish a resume.

Michael:

Early Pete Dye, really?  What are you counting as "early"?  Prestwick was built in the late 1980's, just before my first course at The Legends, and I knew several people involved in it.  Pete was involved -- but my understanding is that he was not there a lot, and that P.B. did the bulk of the creative work.  That's not to deny that Pete's editing was an important element in keeping P.B.'s ideas toned down during his wild and crazy younger years ...

[Thomas Dai]

Cruden Bay
I get really grumpy when climbing up that stupid hill to the stupider 9th hole (even after I can catch my breath and then take in the great eye candy view backwards!!! from the tee), and even grumpier when I play the stupidest 10th and then the just OK 11th-15th.  Why, with great archies such as Old Tom Morris, Archie Simpson, Herbert Fowler, Tom Simpson and Frank Pont being involved, could not SOMEBODY have stood up and said when they had the chance, something to the efect of....
"Make a 'championship' course from today's holes 1-8 and 16-18 plus the land on which the St. Olaf's course lies.  Move your world class view clubhouse up on the point where the back tee for today's 9th is and make it an all world club house.  The first hole would be an incredible one from the back of the now 9th tee to the now 16th green.  You then go to (today's) 17 and then get funky in the rumpty-pumty dunes of St. Olafs and 1-8 on the old course, finishing on what is now the 15th green (with a cool 1st/18th crossover).  You make a relief 9-hole course out of the land of 9-14 (with maybe a funky funicular from 15 to the clubhouse for the geriatrics)."

Rich:
I happen to like Cruden Bay, and I don't want to see it redesigned, even though some of those holes 9-16 are certainly less than ideal.
I don't know the history of the course, but I'd be surprised if they didn't HAVE a routing like you suggest somewhere back in time, that they went away from.  I'd be shocked if they had bypassed all of the St. Olaf ground on the original routing, to climb up the hill to the 9th ... to save ground for a relief course.
Does anyone know the progression of the routing?  I know it was about as it is today back in 1928, but nothing about what came before.

Rich,
I understand where you're coming from regarding CB as the 9th and 10th on the Championship course are nae good holes in my book as well. 11-14 are okay. 15 IMO is brill, 16th pretty good, but......revise the revered holy ground that is the St Olaf course! This has touched a nerve! I hope I'm well into the grave by the time that ever happened. The St Olaf, along with The Bann at Castlerock and the Channel at B&B, maybe the best 9-hole links around. Hole 6 is one of the best par-4's I know and the 8th, is a mini version of Foxy. The other holes are splendid, with the tiny wee 7th a bit tasty. Anyone who goes to CB and doesn't play the StO has missed an opportunity.
As to timing, I could be incorrect, but I believe the short film of the 1914 match between Vardon and Ray that was posted on another recent thread may have been part of an event to celebrate the opening of the then 'new 18-course', ie pretty much the current course. Before that the land of the Championship and the St Olaf was I believe combined to form 18-holes.
The hill that you climb from the 8th green to the 9th tee is I believe known to some locally as 'Cardiac Hill'.
Previous GCA thread as referred to above - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57041.0.html
Short film referred to above - http://ssa.nls.uk/film/3007
All the best

[Greg Taylor]

Ballybunion Cashen.  Not sure if it's the architecture or that the site is simply too severe for a golf course...

+1

The back nine at Cashen was voted the toughest nine on our Ireland trip this past spring.  Not only were the holes tight, they were also blind off the tee.  Add in tough winds and mounds of fescue requiring a machete on the approaches to the greens.  There was one dogleg left par 5 with an elevated tee and dunes on both sides of the faiway, with the fairway running downhill left to right.  We never found our tee shots after looking on both sides of the fairway/rough.

There was another par 5 with a split fairway and a green perched on top of a dune that looked like Mount Everest. I'm not sure what type of club would be required that could carry 200+ at that height.

I'm with you... it takes a lot for me to walk of a course and think, "was that really fun" but the Cashen course was one of them.

I've got to say Doonbeg too - I couldn't work out whether it was the property or the routing, but the 1st and 14th aside I was confused.

[Michael Whitaker]

I have to disagree here. Prestwick is a fantastic course... one of my very favorite hidden gems. And, it's Pete Dye, not PB... early Pete before he started trying so hard to outdo himself with each new course. PB's name is also on the course, but mainly to help get him going in the business and establish a resume.

Michael:

Early Pete Dye, really?  What are you counting as "early"?  Prestwick was built in the late 1980's, just before my first course at The Legends, and I knew several people involved in it.  Pete was involved -- but my understanding is that he was not there a lot, and that P.B. did the bulk of the creative work.  That's not to deny that Pete's editing was an important element in keeping P.B.'s ideas toned down during his wild and crazy younger years ...

Well, maybe I should have said it was early on in the list of courses the Dye's have built in SC. Since Prestwick their SC courses have became bolder and bolder, with most featuring some really wild features. It seemed they were always trying to create something "special" on each new course that would make it stand out as a selling feature from the previous course... which I guess is just part of the business when you are cranking our courses as fast as they were being built in SC in the 90's.

Prestwick was originally intended to be a private club, but their concept didn't take hold in Myrtle Beach and the course opened for outside play which led to massive problems between the developer and the property owners. They have really just recovered from those battles in the past four or five years.

[Richard Hetzel]

Agreed on Iron Valley, but overall I liked the course. That one par 5 on the front that curves along the lake was pretty darn awkward, I espcaped with a par and thought I won the lottery.

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