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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
The influx and participation of younger golfers to this website has been a very good thing. I so enjoy their fellowship at formal and information outings.   I see the same thing in Nashvegas' business community - new ways of thinking, an entrepreneural spirit in a town once dominated by banking, higher education, printing and a Vanderbilt degree, the unbuttoned plaid shirt over white T with skinny jeans and comfortable shoes instead of the suit and tie, appreciation of, but not blind allegiance to, tradition.  I envy and admire this new generation.  

I have a theory I'd like to put to the test based upon the Kingsley v. Crystal Downs thread.  I'd like the following to IM their age to me - I'll reveal the average, not any individual's age.

Tim Bert
Nick Christopher
Howard Reifs
Jason Thurman
Josh Tarble
Matthew Lloyd
Jud T
Mac Plumart
Bill Seitz
Bob Gavelink
Chris DeToro

Thanks gents.

Mike
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:03:40 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 02:25:43 PM »
I can tell you that I know that some and believe most are older than me  :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 03:19:23 PM »
Michael,

I was wondering when one would address this question. It does seem as though a number of contributors here feel that anyone enjoying a game of golf using a cart on a course not considered kosher should be horsewhipped. I am the first to agree that walking is the best way to play the game, however the idea that carrying your own bag should be de rigueur is just plain nonsense. A caddie has been a part of the game since its genesis.

One day the tyros will become old and frail, they no not what is in store for them.

Bob


Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 03:37:24 PM »
Bob - I think Bogey is examining a different question here more likely modern vs classic architecture but perhaps I am wrong. The Kingsley / Crystal thread hasn't really been a walking vs riding discussion. You may be confusing  this thread with the one where a secondary boxing match broker out between two courses further West. Or the other cart ball thread. Most of those on the list Bogey out forth (myself included) probably prefer walking but aren't as ardently opposed to others riding as some on this web site.

Let me know when you are in northern Michigan and I'd love to cart it or walk it around Kingsley with you.  

Cheers!

Tim

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 04:02:59 PM »
Mike, I think this is an interesting question and I am really looking forward to hearing your theory...

Two other factors that are probably driving some of the discussion on that thread are:

1. Access, more specifically, access for those people on this site who post most frequently.  I don't know for sure and am only speculating, but if you added up all the rounds played by those posting would Kingsley rounds be 20x to Crystal Downs?  More?  I have no idea how many rounds Tom Doak has in at the Downs, but does anyone else on that thread have more that 10?  If they do, good for them...

2. We are also coming off a spectacular Midwest Mashie at Kingsley last month - perfect weather, course was in tremendous condition, and good memories were made for everyone in attendance.  I think everyone there is still in a bit of figurative (ok, some literal as well) hang-over from that event.

Either way, I am looking forward to your theory and I have thoroughly enjoyed Josh's thread and everyone that has taken the time to post thoughts and pictures.

Chris.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2013, 04:39:25 PM »
I think another factor that is pertinent to this discussion is that Kingsley is awesome!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 04:42:09 PM »
So Crystal is winning for everyone posting on that board.  How does that affect the assumption from the beginning that Kingsley would win because the people posting are homers or as we are assuming now, young (read not deferential to the classics)?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 04:47:11 PM »
JC, not quite everyone.  At least one guy has Kingsley miles ahead.  Also, it ain't over till it's over: they have a number of holes still to go. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 04:52:17 PM »
I can tell you that I know that some and believe most are older than me  :)

That's because you're delusional...

Bogey - will be interested to see/think about the results. If there's one game that seems to level the playing field -- to have 25 year olds acting like grandfathers and 80 year olds acting like teens -- it's golf.  Young or old, we all see to wear the same dorky shoes for example...

Peter

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 04:57:04 PM »
Jim,

Fair enough.  Do you think it is possible for someone to have Kingsley win that match for them, I mean legitimately believe Kingsley is a better course in their opinion, and not be discounted and deemed emotional, young, a homer, an idiot, not able to grasp Crystal's complexity, not appreciative of the classics, etc?

Peter,

I know half the people on the list and I know I am younger than them.  Don't let my being both fat and bald lead you to believe I'm older than 34 :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2013, 05:00:34 PM »
JC -  it's not the bald and fat that ages you (I didn't even know about those), it's the grumpiness ... :)

Peter

Matthew Lloyd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013, 05:23:06 PM »
Yes, I'll be very interested to see the outcome of this study.  One of my favorite aspects of golf is that it really is an ageless game.  I frequently have much more fun playing the game and discussing the game with my dad and his friends than my own generation.  And my elders really helped me to understand some of the nuances of what makes some courses great and others also-rans.  And I think it's great that sites like this exist to enable the wisdom to be passed along... and also for the younger minds to help shape the discussion going forward as well.  

I think there's a great trade-off here that exists more with golf than other sports.  As a huge basketball fan, I often get frustrated by the generation gap that exists in that sport among fans (i.e. older fans not understanding the value of the "score first" point guard or the "stretch four" big man, but I digress), but to me that's the beauty of golf.  Thanks to course design, multiple tee boxes and the I.Q. required to play, it all evens out.  I know for sure that I will never be able to defeat my dad in a round of golf!  

And in terms of course preferences and how a generation gap may or may not exist as a result, I can't wait to see some data and hear some theories.  I know that I've definitely been taught to appreciate classic courses, having grown up playing one (Scioto in Columbus, OH) and preferring the modern throwbacks like Kingsley, Ballyneal, etc.  I loved Crystal Downs, for example, but have only played it once, so I haven't weighed in too much on that course due to not feeling knowledgeable enough.

Okay, I rambled for much longer than I thought... anyway, look forward to hearing more thoughts on this subject.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013, 05:50:09 PM »
Bogey:

I ask this with the humblest of intentions....IF the younger crowd rate Kingsley higher than the older crowd, is it simply age that changes the equation.  My theory might be that us older (slightly  ;)) observers may have had more opportunity to travel abroad and see other quirky, bold firm designs and have seen some of the very best quirky, bold holes...Perhaps having seen those, Kingsley's boldness doesn't seem quite as impressive, especially when playability becomes marginal.  

Bart


Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 07:26:56 PM »
Bogey:

I ask this with the humblest of intentions....IF the younger crowd rate Kingsley higher than the older crowd, is it simply age that changes the equation.  My theory might be that us older (slightly  ;)) observers may have had more opportunity to travel abroad and see other quirky, bold firm designs and have seen some of the very best quirky, bold holes...Perhaps having seen those, Kingsley's boldness doesn't seem quite as impressive, especially when playability becomes marginal.  

Bart

Wow Bart, calling those who like Kingsley on the thread unsophisticated while at the same time calling Kingsley unplayable...sort of like killing two birds with one post...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:58:02 PM by Chris Hufnagel »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 09:49:05 PM »
Bart, how do you feel about Five Guys?

I'd also like to state, for the record, that I'm younger than my Spartan Spirit-brother.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 10:06:53 PM »
Bogey:

I ask this with the humblest of intentions....IF the younger crowd rate Kingsley higher than the older crowd, is it simply age that changes the equation.  My theory might be that us older (slightly  ;)) observers may have had more opportunity to travel abroad and see other quirky, bold firm designs and have seen some of the very best quirky, bold holes...Perhaps having seen those, Kingsley's boldness doesn't seem quite as impressive, especially when playability becomes marginal.  

Bart


Wow Bart, calling those who like Kingsley on the thread unsophisticated while at the same time calling Kingsley unplayable...sort of like killing two birds with one post...

Sorry.  I love Kingsley.. Was not calling anyone unsophisticated.  Anyone can see that 2 and 9 push boundaries.

Yes, I like 5 guys too.  

Bart

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2013, 10:33:22 PM »
Bart, how do you feel about Five Guys?

I'd also like to state, for the record, that I'm younger than my Spartan Spirit-brother.

An acceptable option if you don't live in a region of the country with an In-N--Out. Good, but not great.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2013, 12:11:48 AM »
Jim,

Fair enough.  Do you think it is possible for someone to have Kingsley win that match for them, I mean legitimately believe Kingsley is a better course in their opinion, and not be discounted and deemed emotional, young, a homer, an idiot, not able to grasp Crystal's complexity, not appreciative of the classics, etc?

You mean on GCA.com, right?  Don't know about young, but the rest, probably, along with sadly deluded, hopelessly uninformed, and unable to distinguish show from go.  

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2013, 06:54:39 AM »
Jim,

Fair enough.  Do you think it is possible for someone to have Kingsley win that match for them, I mean legitimately believe Kingsley is a better course in their opinion, and not be discounted and deemed emotional, young, a homer, an idiot, not able to grasp Crystal's complexity, not appreciative of the classics, etc?

You mean on GCA.com, right?  Don't know about young, but the rest, probably, along with sadly deluded, hopelessly uninformed, and unable to distinguish show from go.  

Exactly.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2013, 04:02:48 PM »
I'm most interested on how I was pegged as being one of the youth--correctly might I add   :)  Was it just through the Kingsley/CD thread or other posts that led to this current thread?

As for walking v riding, I'm an ardent walker and it's quite common to see me walk alongside my cart-ridden playing partners  

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2013, 06:29:50 PM »
I don't know about the generational bias...but I do know about pre-conceived notions and how they affect all human beings perceptions of things, regardless of their age.

I think Crystal is a truly great course...but it could be better if its current maintenance practices were tweaked.  Mowing lines and green speeds, specifically.

Kingsley is an epic golf course.  A true members course.  2 and 9 push boundries in the perfect manner for a members course...where members will go round and round and round.  If you pull a one and done on Kingsley and are looking to post your normal score...you might leave frustrated...this frustration might lead you to the conclusion that the course is too goofy.  But, I'd make the argument that as a match play centric members destination course...this thing is very close to ideal.

Again...Crystal is awesome.  Really, really special place.  I've only been around once, but was taken by the place.  But I truly believe anyone who is being honest with themselves will see maintenance issues with the course.  Not discolored grass and bumpy greens maintenance.  In fact, the manicuring might be perfect.  But the type of maintenance practices that mesh perfectly with the design intent.  

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2013, 08:23:21 PM »
Bill-
Do you really think In-N-Out is better than Five Guys?

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2013, 08:49:58 PM »
Bill-
Do you really think In-N-Out is better than Five Guys?

I don't think In-N-Out deserves to have its reputation sullied by even being compared to Five Guys.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2013, 10:34:27 PM »
Bill-
Do you really think In-N-Out is better than Five Guys?

I don't think In-N-Out deserves to have its reputation sullied by even being compared to Five Guys.

Not sure I've ever agreed more with Mr. Seitz.  Five Guys is perhaps my biggest restaurant dissapointment of the past 5 years, and anyone who knows me realizes that's saying something.  Also I must be a statistical outlier to Bogey and Brad's nascent theory...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:36:45 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Legitimate Generational Bias
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2013, 10:43:15 PM »
Bill-
Do you really think In-N-Out is better than Five Guys?

I don't think In-N-Out deserves to have its reputation sullied by even being compared to Five Guys.

Not sure I've ever agreed more with Mr. Seitz.  Five Guys is perhaps my biggest restaurant dissapointment of the past 5 years, and anyone who knows me realizes that's saying something.  Also I must be a statistical outlier to Bogey and Brad's nascent theory...

I was somewhat surprised to see how expensive Five Guys is.  Walked out before ordering. 

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