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Peter Pallotta

Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2019, 07:17:46 PM »
Does/could any great golf course 'play better' with a cart?
Cypress, Melbourne, Shinnecock, St. Andrews, PV, Augusta, NGLA, Oakmont, Pebble, Merion etc?
The routing, the flow, the pace, the variety, the strategies -- in a word, the architecture: on any great golf course you know, is the experience it provides ever enhanced by the use of a cart? Could it ever be?
I'd theorize that if any golf course actually plays better in a cart than it does walking, if there's even a possibility that the experience of playing it might be enhanced by the use a cart, then it's not a truly great course.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:24:04 PM by Peter Pallotta »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2019, 07:18:18 PM »



Yes John Kavanaugh....I may never recover!!!! ;)

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2019, 07:50:04 PM »
Isn't a great course a number of different elements? If walkability is one positive element to you can't the courses that aren't walkable make up for that with other positive elements? If a course doesn't allow carts that is a negative to me and many others that have to ride since it limits access. That doesn't make it not great because it is just one element of greatness.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2019, 08:02:10 PM »

C'mon Kalen...I get it you don't like Lou's politics and perhaps you do not like Lou but please let's not act like that was some sort of proportionate response that occurred.  And is there some reason I am dragged into this with a few others?

Not only dragged in but thrown in bed with me and Hoover.


I just checked, and I’m free the week of the Prairie Dunes member-guest!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2019, 08:11:54 PM »
I just finished playing in the local member/guest last week. I won a lottery. You really should see if Lawrence would invite you to the Charles Craig in September. I'd love to meet the two of you. Give me notice and I'll buy a set of Mickle-Stix just for the occasion.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2019, 08:22:11 PM »
Shelley,

Mike and Cal made a couple of harmless comments based on what they observed in a couple of casual rounds. No judgement, no Fidel'ism, no condemnation, no insistence of anything.

Lou was the one who took it to straight to Defcon 1 or 2 with political jabs and the like in ensuing posts...


I have no idea why you wish to misrepresent this.  My entire participation on this thread remains without edits for anybody who cares to evaluate it.  Have your prejudices so overwhelmed your reading comprehension and objectivity?
 
If acknowledging that by virtue of some people paying more it lessens our load and that perhaps instead of condemning we should be appreciative is taken it "straight to Defcon 1 or 2", then we really have no room for any type of discussion.  Your confederate's vile personal attacks and your attempts to justify it are among the most disappointing experiences I've had on this site in my 17 years here.


You may also note that it was Mr. Sweeney who introduced the faux-political Castro and "dictator" comments into the discussion.  I took it as a friendly jab from someone I've played golf with on a few occasions.  He has a pretty good idea of my background and if we weren't friendly, perhaps I could construed them as bait.


BTW, I did make a copy of your friend's expletive-filled attack if anyone wishes to assess your equivalency characterization.  It stained this site and I am glad someone took it down, but I won't allow you or anyone else to paint me with the same brush.   You should be ashamed of yourself. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:23:43 PM by Lou_Duran »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2019, 08:26:01 PM »


You may also note that it was Mr. Sweeney who introduced the faux-political Castro and "dictator" comments into the discussion.  I took it as a friendly jab from someone I've played golf with on a few occasions.  He has a pretty good idea of my background and if we weren't friendly, perhaps I could have taken as bait.




Lou,


It was bait, AND YOU TOOK IT!!


Come on man. Shelly, you, and me are now the "Old Guard" here. Embrace the insanity and dammit, I miss Johnny Miller too!


PS - Johnny is on The Golf Channel now...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2019, 08:42:03 PM »
Isn't a great course a number of different elements? If walkability is one positive element to you can't the courses that aren't walkable make up for that with other positive elements? If a course doesn't allow carts that is a negative to me and many others that have to ride since it limits access. That doesn't make it not great because it is just one element of greatness.


In the minds of some, you are relegated to less than great courses.


Most here have heard the term "connector holes".  They are primarily indifferent holes pre-large earth-moving era which connected the more interesting parts of the site to make a compact routing work.  We overlook those in Classic Era courses- Pebble Beach and CPC have some- in favor of all the other superior qualities- the use of the Pacific Ocean largely among them.


Ironically, some tend to paint Fazio's "18 signature holes"/no-weak-holes approach in a negative light.  I guess that less is more in a classic course and more is too much in a modern.


Fortunately, diversity of opinion still lives in the real world.  In the minds of many, walking is a relatively unimportant element in what makes a course great.  But most golfers don't waste a lot of time or care analyzing these things.  I happen to believe that the routing is a critical element, but as you note, there are others.  IMO, a course that can only be ridden by a large majority of golfers has a lot to overcome in order to be "great", but there are at least a few. 

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2019, 08:55:10 PM »
I just finished playing in the local member/guest last week. I won a lottery. You really should see if Lawrence would invite you to the Charles Craig in September. I'd love to meet the two of you. Give me notice and I'll buy a set of Mickle-Stix just for the occasion.


Well played. No one can resist custom-made trestle sticks.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #159 on: June 11, 2019, 09:08:04 PM »


You may also note that it was Mr. Sweeney who introduced the faux-political Castro and "dictator" comments into the discussion.  I took it as a friendly jab from someone I've played golf with on a few occasions.  He has a pretty good idea of my background and if we weren't friendly, perhaps I could have taken as bait.




Lou,


It was bait, AND YOU TOOK IT!!


Come on man. Shelly, you, and me are now the "Old Guard" here. Embrace the insanity and dammit, I miss Johnny Miller too!


PS - Johnny is on The Golf Channel now...


No Mike, I just playfully ran with it for a bit before spitting it out.  You would know that if you got to the bottom of my reply.  I can go "Defcon" whatever without being profane or going defensively hostile.   And though I don't have our friend Gib's facility with words, had I swallowed the bait, I would have clearly communicated my displeasure in a sufficiently biting way that you couldn't miss.


As to the insanity, there is way too much of it in this world that I don't need to add to it.  And when Johnny starts making sense, I know it is time.


It is ironic that I defend riders given what I once lost at my old club when it went to mandatory carts during the tournament season.  I do remember that over 100 members signed my petition with only one refusal, nearly all riders, asking the club to reverse its decision.  As the urban philosopher Rodney King once posed, "... can we all just get along?" ;)


JK,


If you need a M-G partner, ....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #160 on: June 11, 2019, 09:55:58 PM »
Shelley,

Mike and Cal made a couple of harmless comments based on what they observed in a couple of casual rounds. No judgement, no Fidel'ism, no condemnation, no insistence of anything.

Lou was the one who took it to straight to Defcon 1 or 2 with political jabs and the like in ensuing posts...

Kalen,

This just plain nonsense.
Although post 117 has been deleted and I never saw it, it would seem just by the fact that it was deleted that defcon 1 or 2 would apply to it. It seems it was a reaction to Lou's post that was Frank discussion, nothing more, nothing less.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #161 on: June 11, 2019, 10:21:16 PM »
Isn't a great course a number of different elements? If walkability is one positive element to you can't the courses that aren't walkable make up for that with other positive elements? If a course doesn't allow carts that is a negative to me and many others that have to ride since it limits access. That doesn't make it not great because it is just one element of greatness.


Tim:


It's a fair question, with many answers.


I think most agree that a course that truly isn't walkable or meant to be walked is a big negative.  And it remains a fact that such courses are held back significantly in most ratings -- GOLF DIGEST list has a couple like Alotian that are apparently not walkable, but the GOLF Magazine list of the world top 100 really doesn't have any.  Neither ranking specifies how much "walkability" should be worth -- GOLF DIGEST tried years ago, with poor results** -- but it is apparent from the results that there are a lot of traditionalists on both panels who think walkability is important and non-walkability is almost disqualifying.


Sure, if you try to define what is a great course to any sort of specific criteria, walkability is only one part of it, and even at that, there are degrees of walkability. 


Arguably, the least walkable course in the top echelon is Augusta National - you sure as heck wouldn't walk 18 holes there in the summer carrying your own bag, but they get a pass because they close in the summer and you can't carry your own bag anyway and, well, it's Augusta and everyone knows it has to be ranked highly regardless.


Further down the lists, though, the walkability does factor into the rankings.  I always wonder why Stone Eagle and Rock Creek are not as highly regarded as some of my other courses, and I think walkability is a factor.  They are both quite hilly -- and even though I have walked them both many times, and sometimes in the company of 65- and 70-year-old members who had no problem walking them, I can't argue that they are as walkable as Pacific Dunes or Cape Kidnappers.


** My recollection is that GOLF DIGEST awarded a binary two points on its scale for Walkability - you either got them or you didn't.  But the editors didn't want to make the tough calls on which courses were walkable, so they based it on whether the course / club policy allowed walking or not -- so a lot of unwalkable courses declared walking okay, even though they knew nobody would walk, in order to get the two points, while other courses in places like Myrtle Beach did not change their policies, and tumbled down the lists.  [Two points will take you from 100th place to out of the top 200 on the GOLF DIGEST ranking, and the effect gets bigger the further down the list you go, as so many courses are bunched tightly together.]  I believe they dropped the 2-point bonus after a couple of rating cycles, and now include walkability as part of Ambiance, or some such fudge.


I personally don't know if I could vote for a course that was unwalkable as one of the greatest courses in the world.  I know that I did not when I was on the GOLF Magazine panel, because I just never saw the course that I thought should be made the exception to the rule.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #162 on: June 11, 2019, 11:01:50 PM »
Mike, thanks for bringing back a good old thread.


Obviously,  a course that was designed to only be accessible with golf carts cannot be be considered "great." A hypothetical course could have 18 world class holes, but if you had to get in a cart to drive 5 minutes to the next tee, 17 times...,  that course could never be considered great. I trust we all agree on that.


The title of this thread reminds me that we should never use the word "great" when describing a golf course. It  too nondescript, too reliant upon a supposed agreed upon definition of "great" which, of course, is not agreed upon. It is too lazy. Perhaps a better title might be: Can a non-walking course ever be a 9 or 10 on the Doak scale?


Could Tom create a composite course using holes of his choice at NGLA, Shinnecock and Sebonack that would require a golf cart, and rate that as a 9 or 10?

I think a much more relevant question, perhaps one that deserves its own thread, is this: "If your best friend in the world joined a club (without consulting you...) would you buy a home and join the golf club in that planned real estate development with solid golf courses that have huge distances from green to tee making them effectively unwalkable, simply because you could retire in that community and play golf with your buddy?"

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 11:04:03 PM by Bill Brightly »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #163 on: June 12, 2019, 04:25:28 AM »
In fact there are two subjective criteria, cart course (what is unwalkable?) and great. To me, the more apt question is does the walk enhance or hinder the experience? I tend to fall on the side of designs which favour the walk even if it means the course may not be quite as good from a purely hole quality PoV. For me there are few more frustrating things about golf than a long walk from green to tee...backward walks aren't clever either. Mind you, there are always exceptions and like any exceptions they are open to abuse.

In theory, yes, a cart course for me could definitely be great. In practice, I am not convinced I know of one.

In reality, carts can help people experience great walking courses who may not otherwise be able to do so. 

My gut tells me a great course is great no matter how one gets himself around.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #164 on: June 12, 2019, 10:42:16 AM »



C'mon Kalen...I get it you don't like Lou's politics and perhaps you do not like Lou but please let's not act like that was some sort of proportionate response that occurred.  And is there some reason I am dragged into this with a few others?


Not only dragged in but thrown in bed with me and Hoover.

I cannot un-see this.  But boy would I like to join VM's crowd at the Algonquin roundtable, especially if Scott Clem (I remember?) joins us and sketches golf holes on the tablecloth as he did at KP II. 

At least we haven't had to invoke Godwin's law.

Tom Doak, I started to challenge you on the walkability of Augusta National but darned if those climbs aren't pretty steep at 8,9,14,17 and 18.  What goes down must come up.  No wonder that Vijay was lumbering along slowly this year. 

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2019, 01:33:12 PM »
Did you just call Augusta a "Cart Course"?




JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #166 on: June 12, 2019, 01:47:27 PM »
I am not trying to dictate how one plays a course or how they enjoy it.  However, if a course design fails to present abreasonable opportunity to walk, i do not think it can be considered among the best. I cannot think of an exception to that rule. Sand Hills is a very pleasant walk in my book. Most people play 36 so naturally there will be a lot of carts there.




As Jason lays out his description, this is not about carts being available, or even mandatory based on club rules. It's not even about someone being able to walk a course.


It's about routing.


I'll nominate Royal New Kent as I think/thought this was an absolutely incredible course and I wouldn't walk it if you paid me. People have commented on 18 being too weak a finish for a truly great course. I don't see it as that bad but regardless this is an incredible golf course which I hope returns to, or surpasses, the original trajectory.


I wouldn't equate it with the criteria for a Doak 9, but an 8 for sure. If an 8 isn't great, you're setting yourself up for disappointment...

[/color]7 - An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, [/color] interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.
[/color]
[/color]8 - One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout
[/color]
[/color]9 - An outstanding course, certainly one of the best in the world, with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2019, 04:26:19 PM »
I would never have voted for Royal New Kent as a great course, because it was so disjointed.  It wasn't close to an 8 for my tastes.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #168 on: June 12, 2019, 10:43:48 PM »
That’s certainly fair but when you consider your qualifications for 7, 8 and 9 I see it firmly in the 8 camp.


The only drawback in my opinion is it’s lack of walkabity...it’s disjointed-ness.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2019, 10:48:00 PM »
Serious walkers will rarely complain about undulation. Peachtree kicked my ass, even with a caddy, but I'm not complaining. That's a hilly course! The courses I take issue with are those with very long green to next tee distances. I would call these courses cart golf, because if you're not in a cart, you will slow your group down if the others are riding, which is a drag for all concerned, and in the USA, the walker is the weirdo.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #170 on: June 13, 2019, 01:35:07 AM »
Lloyd, at my club in Northern California, the pro shop statistics say that 66% of the rounds are walked (carrying, or using the free Clicgear push carts).  Walking is viewed as a great exercise opportunity by a large portion of the membership.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #171 on: June 13, 2019, 04:35:05 AM »
Lloyd, at my club in Northern California, the pro shop statistics say that 66% of the rounds are walked (carrying, or using the free Clicgear push carts).  Walking is viewed as a great exercise opportunity by a large portion of the membership.


It was 100 degrees in Sacto today and 90 in the Bay yesterday. Bet those stats  leaned more toward carts and will through Sept.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #172 on: June 16, 2019, 08:17:18 AM »
No, probably not. A cart course cannot be a great course because of the disjointed routing from green to tee. And often a cart course is going through houses, or a thick forest.


Can a course be great with a 300 or 400 yard walk from one green to another? Perhaps, but it has to be limited to one long walk, like the one at Bandon Trails.


Best cart course I have played: Ballyhack. Another fun one: Royal New Kent.  Worse one: Tierra Rejada in Moorpark, CA, even though there are no houses on it. Strangest cart course I played: Silvertip in Canmore, Canada.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #173 on: June 16, 2019, 11:31:40 AM »
I consider walking the course to be part of the game.  The architect establishes a journey around the property to be walked.  The use of a cart limits the amount of physical expenditure, and evens the playing field so that injured, old or poorly conditioned golfers can compete favorably.  This is all fine by me, but at some real level it is unfair to the golfer who keeps themselves in shape.  If everyone takes a cart, the playing field is even, but that still penalizes the physically fit player.

My Dad played golf until he was 75, walking around a moderately hilly golf course three times a week.  He did this despite being significantly overweight, carrying 30-40 extra pounds around his belly.  All of his friends walked as well, and all did it until they were too sick to play anymore.  A few of them moved over to Pasatiempo in recent years, and most still walked that hilly course.  That's the environment in which I was exposed to golf.  Walk the course at 7:00 AM, lunch by noon, and a lazy afternoon watching golf on TV.

But the weather in the San Francisco Bay Area is so cool and moderate year round, it is easy to walk the course.  Especially in the warmer months, the temperature and humidity in much of the country is too hot to comfortably play golf, especially if one plays several times a week.  It's now getting too hot for me to play at Ballyneal on a warm summer day; a few years back I played 36 holes in a tournament on a windy 95-100 degree day and felt quite sick from dehydration afterwards.  Most people sensibly take carts because it's too physically demanding to do otherwise.

As far as I know, the rules of competition at the highest levels of the game require a golf course to be walked; the player may use a caddie to help with the task.  How can a golf course be great if the course cannot host a legitimate (USGA) competition?

The best "cart" course I've played is Stone Eagle.  It is no so much the distance, but the presence of a few very steep climbs (and awkward green to tee transitions in a few places) that make the course such a hard walk.  I've done it before, but it's hard.  In fact, my lowest score ever there was played walking.  By contrast, Rock Creek Cattle Company is a very long walk, but the slopes are relatively gentle, and during the cool weather during my one visit there, I found the walk to be very enjoyable.


My political views on carts on reactionary, as they are about many modern conveniences.  I am a consistent, late adopter of new technology.  Taking a cart is an equalizer, but it is a necessary component of a game played in warm or otherwise compromised conditions for an aging demographic.   
 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a cart course ever be a great course?
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2019, 03:05:40 PM »

As far as I know, the rules of competition at the highest levels of the game require a golf course to be walked; the player may use a caddie to help with the task.  How can a golf course be great if the course cannot host a legitimate (USGA) competition?   


Even the USGA makes exceptions:

https://www.usga.org/championships-hub/additional-entry-resources/cart-policy-at-usga-senior-amateur-championships.html

I recall a U.S. Am qualifier in Dallas where the one-seat policy was adopted for the second 18.  The game is played throughout the country where conditions at times can present dangerous situations for some golfers.  I would offer that if it is too hot to hoist the trophy in victory without oven mittens, it is probably reasonable to allow carts for the competitors AND their caddies.

And, btw, Pasatiempo can become cart golf at times.  When it does, the course ceases to be great?

I can't imagine walking Peachtree much of the year without a caddie.  Maybe Augusta National (which I have not played) as well.  Can a course which cannot be played/enjoyed without assistance by a good majority of golfers be considered great?  Are we are not all about fun and against difficulty on this site?   

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