[Michael Whitaker]

Harbour Town is considered great by many on the site. It's cart path only most of the year. TPC Sawgrass is CPO 7-8 months of the year...at $350/round.

Anthony,

Harbour Town offers walking with a caddy every day the course is open for play... and, the caddy fee is included in the cost, which tops out at $264 for non-resort guests.

[David Davis]

Carts and cart paths are an Americanization of golf and it's hard to suggest that a 50 cart fleet has anything to do with allowing the disabled to play.

That being said, I love riding, I rode at Sand Hills and Dismal in 90+ degree weather. I'd do it more often as well. I walk at least 100 rounds a year in Europe/UK so in my mind if half my US rounds are cart rounds (to throw out a number) then I enjoy it. My first choice is always to walk, at least the first 18.

If a cart course is defined as a course where you pay a greenfee and it includes a cart for example then I've never been on one that I considered great. Very good yes. The best course I've ever personally taken a cart on would have to be Sand Hills. I wouldn't mind walking that one either if the weather wasn't too hot. Maybe early evening in a nice breeze. I think the walking routes are much more direct there even though they seemed to strongly discourage us from walking. It must of been our looks!

[Terry Lavin]

Cartball has its place in the golf world.  I'm not fond of cart path only golf courses and will do anything in ability to avoid playing them, so I would say that cart path only golf courses would have a very difficult time being classified as great in my not so humble opinion.

[Michael Whitaker]

Walking lost its charm with the introduction of the double strap bag. I can't hardly stand looking at "them" and the clicking of the irons is inexcusable.

I'll bet you cry over the demise of leather soled golf shoes with metal spikes.  

No not at all.  I hate walking golfers who click their irons like it is a mating ritual.  The double strapped bag has made it almost impossible for even the most considerate of golfers to prevent this obnoxious Chinese water torture.  Newsflash:  Walking golfers are not pretty and do not add to anyones experience.  You should not be seen nor heard.  On to your point about metal spikes, I used to love to click my spikes across any hard surface.  I was a regular Gregory Hines on toast. Thank God that is gone from the game.

Ha ha! You are so full of crap!!! You "hate" too much. Clicking golf clubs? Really?

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

I thought the original Sutton Bay was a great course. Walkable, yes, but barely.

Surely "great" involves more than Doak 9s and 10s?

I mean great in the more narrow sense such as a great work of art or a great film.  To me - the difficulty of walking the original Sutton Bay was a significant demerit and I question whether it can be considered great for that reason alone.  The original Sutton Bay is almost the exact dividing line in my mind between a cart course and a walking course.  

I might expand the definition of "great" to include 8's but not assuredly not beyond that point.  I doubt there are many, if any, 8s that are cart courses.  

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

The Doak Scale is again a subjective measure.  Tom's point is that greatness can be determined by each golfer.

For example, for an older golfer that cannot walk, this question may be much different than you.

If golf course quality is purely subjective, then you are correct.  I struggle with that issue at times but ultimately do not believe you evaluate golf courses based purely on subjective experience.  Subjective experience can, and likely is, impacted by the objective quality of the course you are playing.

I subjectively like some of my kids art better than any other art in the world.  Do I think their work is the highest quality art in the world?  I don't think so and I suspect anyone would question my sanity if I attempted to argue the position.

I like to think quality of golf course architecture is more than simply subjective preference.  

[Jason Topp]

As Tom Fazio pointed out in his book, its unlikely that any great mountain setting course could be built without cart paths, allowing us to create great golf on sites formerly not useable.

I would not disagree with the idea that you can create wonderful golf experiences on sites that were not formerly useable.  However, I question whether it is possible to build a course that can be considered among the elite on such sites.

[Dan Kelly]

I like to think quality of golf course architecture is more than simply subjective preference.  

Why do you like to think that?

This "Doak Scale" to which everyone bows so deeply is itself nothing more than one man's subjective preferences! Has Tom ever claimed objectivity? I certainly hope not.

Back then, he gave my home course a 3 ("About the level of the average golf course in the world...."). If my home course is about the level of the average golf course in the world, I'll eat the Confidential Guide. But, of course, we're stuck with that 3 -- meaning that Doak Scale adherents will never bother to experience "an excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to [sic?] the world of golf" (the criterion for a 7). Their loss.

You seem to have Ease of Walkability as a criterion for a great course. Fine. That's one of your subjective criteria, and there's no reason to attempt to argue you out of it.

But you can't stick me with it. I say Sutton Bay was (to my eyes) a great course -- because Ease of Walkability is not one of my criteria.

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Y.

Agreed that the bigger issue is cart paths. I watched a prominent architect, while redoing my course about 15 years ago, spend an inordinate amount of his time making sure that cart paths couldn't be seen from tees.  Which is all very nice, but golf architects should find better things to spend their time on.

Bob

If most members/guests/customers play a golf course riding in carts, might planning the location of cart paths not be time well spent?  I hate cart paths that are close to playing areas and double punish marginally errant shots into unplayable positions.

Sand Hills sans carts for many of its players would be extremely difficult during much of its limited season- and why the cart path system appeared to have been much more extensive in the 10+ years between my two visits.

Walking 18 holes at Pasatiempo in my 40s was vigorous exercise.  Today I couldn't do it without a pull cart.

What makes a golf course great is very subjective.  Cypress Point in my book is at the top of the heap.  Lanny Wadkins thinks it is little more than a pedestrian course with a good view.  

[Jason Topp]

Back then, he gave my home course a 3 ("About the level of the average golf course in the world...."). If my home course is about the level of the average golf course in the world, I'll eat the Confidential Guide. But, of course, we're stuck with that 3 -- meaning that Doak Scale adherents will never bother to experience "an excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to [sic?] the world of golf" (the criterion for a 7). Their loss.

Dan -  I view a 7 as a very stringent criteria.  To quote the author:

"So then what's a 7?  A 7 is a course that sets itself beyond the typical Tom Fazio or Jeff Brauer or Tom Doak course.  If it's just an average example of our work, then it isn't worth traveling to play, any more than any other of our courses.  A 7 has to have something about it that's really special -- a unique setting, a better set of greens, a couple of truly great holes, etc."  

 

[Dan Kelly]

To quote the author:

"So then what's a 7?  A 7 is a course that sets itself beyond the typical Tom Fazio or Jeff Brauer or Tom Doak course.  If it's just an average example of our work, then it isn't worth traveling to play, any more than any other of our courses.  A 7 has to have something about it that's really special -- a unique setting, a better set of greens, a couple of truly great holes, etc."  

Typical, average, special, unique, better, truly great -- all purely subjective, IMO.

[Jason Topp]

I like to think quality of golf course architecture is more than simply subjective preference.  

Why do you like to think that?

See my art example above.

The idea behind this site is to identify quality in golf course architecture and explain it.  Identifying what you subjectively like is the first part of that process but it is the easy part.  

[Dan Kelly]

The idea behind this site is to identify quality in golf course architecture and explain it.  Identifying what you subjectively like is the first part of that process but it is the easy part.  

The hard part is persuading others that your own subjective criteria (e.g., a great course must be easy to walk) must be ours, as well!

Emoticon (but not exclamation point) omitted.

[BCrosby]

Lou -

You misunderstand me. I would rather an architect hide cart paths than not, given unlimited time and resources. The problem was that the architect's time and our club's resources were limited. Tackling more traditional design problems tended to get squeezed out.

Bob

[Jason Topp]

The idea behind this site is to identify quality in golf course architecture and explain it.  Identifying what you subjectively like is the first part of that process but it is the easy part.  

The hard part is persuading others that your own subjective criteria (e.g., a great course must be easy to walk) must be ours, as well!
Emoticon (but not exclamation point) omitted.

Not really.

Take the top courses on any list and cart courses are hard to find.  Other than Golf Digest (whose lists have been ripped many times on this site) your best bet would be the Golfweek Top modern courses (none of the classic courses are cart courses for obvious reasons).  I have played a decent number of the top 25 and none I have played are cart courses.  A few I do not know one way or another and I marked them with a star:
1. Sand Hills Golf Club 9.28
2. Pacific Dunes 8.96
3. Whistling Straits (Straits) 8.58
4. Friar’s Head 8.54
5. Old Macdonald 8.46
6. Ballyneal 8.44
7. Sebonack Golf Club 8.30
8. Bandon Dunes 8.27
9. *Pete Dye Golf Club 8.20
10. Shadow Creek Golf Club 8.12
11. Muirfield Village Golf Club 8.09
12. *The Golf Club 8.06
13. *Old Sandwich Golf Club 7.98
14. *Wade Hampton Club 7.97
15. *Rock Creek Cattle Company 7.94
16. Kinloch Golf Club 7.91
17. Ocean Course at Kiawah Island 7.86
18. *Honors Course 7.84
19. TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium) 7.82
20. *Boston Golf Club 7.82
21. Spyglass Hill Golf Club 7.79
22. Chambers Bay Golf Club 7.70
23. *Huntsman Springs 7.66
24. Kingsley Club 7.66
25. Bandon Trails 7.66

[Dan Kelly]

Not really.

Take the top courses on any list and cart courses are hard to find.  Other than Golf Digest (whose lists have been ripped many times on this site) your best bet would be the Golfweek Top modern courses (none of the classic courses are cart courses for obvious reasons).  I have played a decent number of the top 25 and none I have played are cart courses.  A few I do not know one way or another and I marked them with a star:
1. Sand Hills Golf Club 9.28
2. Pacific Dunes 8.96
3. Whistling Straits (Straits) 8.58
4. Friar’s Head 8.54
5. Old Macdonald 8.46
6. Ballyneal 8.44
7. Sebonack Golf Club 8.30
8. Bandon Dunes 8.27
9. *Pete Dye Golf Club 8.20
10. Shadow Creek Golf Club 8.12
11. Muirfield Village Golf Club 8.09
12. *The Golf Club 8.06
13. *Old Sandwich Golf Club 7.98
14. *Wade Hampton Club 7.97
15. *Rock Creek Cattle Company 7.94
16. Kinloch Golf Club 7.91
17. Ocean Course at Kiawah Island 7.86
18. *Honors Course 7.84
19. TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium) 7.82
20. *Boston Golf Club 7.82
21. Spyglass Hill Golf Club 7.79
22. Chambers Bay Golf Club 7.70
23. *Huntsman Springs 7.66
24. Kingsley Club 7.66
25. Bandon Trails 7.66

Surely, counselor, you can see that "none of the top-ranked courses is a cart course" does not in any way answer the question in the title of your thread.

I submit to you that, had Coore & Crenshaw decided to use the 18 farthest-flung holes they identified on that huge spread out in Nebraska, they would have had a great course on their hands -- even if no one ever wanted to walk it.

You might disagree, on the basis that a cart course cannot be a great course.

I would agree with you that walkability is a virtue in its own right -- but apparently disagree that lack-of-walkability disqualifies a course from consideration for greatness.

[David Kelly]

Surely, counselor, you can see that "none of the top-ranked courses is a cart course" does not in any way answer the question in the title of your thread.

If you take the thread title literally then of course the answer would be yes.  Is there a great cart ball course is a better question.  I think the answer is no from what I've seen. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
I submit to you that, had Coore & Crenshaw decided to use the 18 farthest-flung holes they identified on that huge spread out in Nebraska, they would have had a great course on their hands -- even if no one ever wanted to walk it.
...

 

You might have great golf holes, but how could you have a great golf course without any semblance of continuity?

We're not looking for scenic tours, we're looking for golf courses.

[Jason Topp]

I submit to you that, had Coore & Crenshaw decided to use the 18 farthest-flung holes they identified on that huge spread out in Nebraska, they would have had a great course on their hands -- even if no one ever wanted to walk it.

Imagine the current 18 holes with a significant cart ride between each of them.  I would submit that the course would be held in a similar esteem as Kapalua Plantation rather than where it sits now.  Why - because the course would not be as good.

[Dan Kelly]

Imagine the current 18 holes with a significant cart ride between each of them.  I would submit that the course would be held in a similar esteem as Kapalua Plantation rather than where it sits now.  Why - because the course would not be as good.

I have never played Kapalua. One question:

1. Are you saying that the 18 individual holes at Kapalua are as good, IYO, as the 18 individual holes at Sand Hills?

I have played four rounds at Sand Hills. Walked one; rode three. A second question:

2. How about you?

And by you, I don't mean just you, Jason. I mean the plural you, as in everyone else here: What percentage of your Sand Hills rounds have been walking-and-carrying (or pushing) rounds?

(There were no caddies available when I visited, so that was no option.)

[Jason Topp]

Imagine the current 18 holes with a significant cart ride between each of them.  I would submit that the course would be held in a similar esteem as Kapalua Plantation rather than where it sits now.  Why - because the course would not be as good.

I have never played Kapalua. One question:

1. Are you saying that the 18 individual holes at Kapalua are as good, IYO, as the 18 individual holes at Sand Hills?

Probably not but I cannot think of a better Coore/Crenshaw comparative.  

I have played four rounds at Sand Hills. Walked one; rode three. A second question:

2. How about you?

And by you, I don't mean just you, Jason. I mean the plural you, as in everyone else here: What percentage of your Sand Hills rounds have been walking-and-carrying (or pushing) rounds?

(There were no caddies available when I visited, so that was no option.)

Walked the first 18 and rode the second both of two days.  Most people are going to ride there because most people will play 36.  I have no problem with that.

[Bill Seitz]

Does the walk to and from the clubhouse count?  I think Greywalls is great course, and is fairly walkable.  I saw a few people walking it when I was up there recently (I rode due mostly to the nature of the event), but I certainly wouldn't want to walk from the clubhouse to the first tee and back.  

No not at all.  I hate walking golfers who click their irons like it is a mating ritual.  The double strapped bag has made it almost impossible for even the most considerate of golfers to prevent this obnoxious Chinese water torture.

This is nothing that a properly deployed towel and/or a right arm conveniently draped over the open end of the bag (which is quite comfortable) can't fix.  

[Jud_T]

No course that mandates how you play is great.

Apparently Old Mac, Pac Dunes, Erin Hills, Bandon Trails, Bandon Dunes, Muirfield, and.....wait for it......Ballyneal are but mere goat tracks based on this criteria.  When I get to the bottom of page 57 of the latest compendium of annotated Proust I fully intend to find a veiled dig at Ballyneal from a closeted French Dismal member....

[DMoriarty]

The hard part is persuading others that your own subjective criteria (e.g., a great course must be easy to walk) must be ours, as well!

Emoticon (but not exclamation point) omitted.

Dan,  Is it possible you are talking about personal preference rather than subjective criteria?

When I think about whether a course is great, I try to consider more than just my personal tastes and preferences.   For example, I am a short hitter and a crappy golfer but, ideally, I think a "great" golf course ought to be enjoyable to all levels of golfers, not just the short hitting crappy golfers like me.   My criterion (enjoyable for all levels of golfers) is subjective, but it is not merely a personal preference. I am at least trying to look beyond my own interaction with the course to consider how other golfers interact

On almost all courses built for walking, the cart-ballers are accommodated.   And where cart-ballers are not allowed it is usually by mandate and not because of the architecture.   But on true cart-ball courses, walking is practically impossible whatever the rule.  

[Tom_Doak]

No course that mandates how you play is great.

Apparently Old Mac, Pac Dunes, Erin Hills, Bandon Trails, Bandon Dunes, Muirfield, and.....wait for it......Ballyneal are but mere goat tracks based on this criteria.  When I get to the bottom of page 57 of the latest compendium of annotated Proust I fully intend to find a veiled dig at Ballyneal from a closeted French Dismal member....

Don't forget St. Andrews and Ballybunion and a host of other U.K. courses that don't allow carts.  And Merion and Pine Valley.

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