[Sean_A]

Tom

I guess my angle is more about trying to strike a balance between walking courses and getting the "most" out of a site.  I am not convinced the smaller footprint approach (when all is considered) is really a compromise in terms of quality.  The justification seems to be that guys can hop in carts and hence there isn't a problem.  I think its a shame the cart is being used a routing as solution when that may not be necessary or even desirable.  If the bigger footprint is a trend, I hope it is short lived. 

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

In general, I think I've done okay at it, though it is increasingly frustrating to participate here and listen to the black and white thinkers insist that it's their way or the highway.  I used to be more like that, too, I guess  but I have learned that there is a difference between having principles and making ultimatums.

Tom:

Maybe I am not communicating clearly enough, but my view is by no means it is my way or the highway.  As I stated earlier, in some situations, building a cart course is the best solution for a particular piece of property and may produce the best product at a particular location.  I play on carts regularly, particularly when travelling and playing multiple rounds in a day.

What I am trying to do here is identify requirements for a truly outstanding course.  For a course to be considered one of the best in the world, I believe walking is a sufficiently fundamental aspect of the game that it needs to be accomodated.  I suspect many of your clients aspire to build courses that will be seen as one of the elite.  If so, I think they need to consider this criteria.

[Lou_Duran]

When the baby boomers die, golf dies. Carts are the pacemaker keeping the game alive. Who is going to pay the bills at the walking only courses when we quit paying dues?  I give it ten years at most.

Our world today demands a freedom of choice. I don't like mandatory cart ball, caddie or walking courses. I see no reason why people can not enjoy the game in any manner they choose. How can any course be considered great that discriminates against 50% of all golfers?  

We live in a time, as we all should, where a sign that reads "Not Welcome" is a barrier to greatness.  

Walking has no more to do with golf than it has to do with getting to school. It's your Father's story.

I have always liked the smell of freshly laid asphalt (ditto for DDT fumes).  Heretofore, I thought it was probably toxic, and frequent exposure would result in limited cognitive function.  With these immutable "truths",  JK has relieved me of this mistaken notion.  I am now freed to follow my lifelong ambition of trailing behind an asphalt truck, lute in hand, laying road, while happily contemplating what makes a golf course "great".  How can anyone ridicule these succinct expressions of reason as a "screed"?  I must say, my estimation of BarneyF/JakaB/JK has greatly appreciated.  

 

[JESII]

Tom,

Do you disagree that ease and enjoyment of walking the course should be a consideration?

I believe, at it's core, that's the point of this thread...and I don't see how it's black and white.

[Dan Kelly]

Tom,

Do you disagree that ease and enjoyment of walking the course should be a consideration?

I believe, at it's core, that's the point of this thread...and I don't see how it's black and white.

Jim --

The question *you* pose is not black-and-white.

The question in the title of the thread is black-and-white, IMO.

I think both questions are interesting.

Dan

[JESII]

I agree Dan, but I think Jason set a reasonably high bar to attain greatness (Doak 9 I thought he said) so he's basically asking if a course that's unwalkable could be one of the top 25 courses in the world...at that level of scrutiny, walkability would absolutely be a pass/fail consideration for me.

I might not be the right person to ask because I floated Royal New Kent as Great and Unwalkable but it's probably a 5 or 6 to most on Doak's scale.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree Dan, but I think Jason set a reasonably high bar to attain greatness (Doak 9 I thought he said) so he's basically asking if a course that's unwalkable could be one of the top 25 courses in the world...at that level of scrutiny, walkability would absolutely be a pass/fail consideration for me.

I might not be the right person to ask because I floated Royal New Kent as Great and Unwalkable but it's probably a 5 or 6 to most on Doak's scale.

Jim:

If the bar for "greatness" is a 9 on the Doak scale, which is +/- one of the top 25 courses in the world [and a level I didn't read into Jason's original post], then I can attest to the fact that no one has managed to build an unwalkable course that has reached those heights, to date.

But I don't think it's impossible, given a certain type of terrain, and brilliant design.  It just hasn't been done yet.  I don't know if it ever will be.

Also, good guess on my rating for Royal New Kent!  

[Michael Whitaker]

When the baby boomers die, golf dies. Carts are the pacemaker keeping the game alive. Who is going to pay the bills at the walking only courses when we quit paying dues?  I give it ten years at most.

Our world today demands a freedom of choice. I don't like mandatory cart ball, caddie or walking courses. I see no reason why people can not enjoy the game in any manner they choose. How can any course be considered great that discriminates against 50% of all golfers?  

We live in a time, as we all should, where a sign that reads "Not Welcome" is a barrier to greatness.  

Walking has no more to do with golf than it has to do with getting to school. It's your Father's story.

I have always liked the smell of freshly laid asphalt (ditto for DDT fumes).  Heretofore, I thought it was probably toxic, and frequent exposure would result in limited cognitive function.  With these immutable "truths",  JK has relieved me of this mistaken notion.  I am now freed to follow my lifelong ambition of trailing behind an asphalt truck, lute in hand, laying road, while happily contemplating what makes a golf course "great".  How can anyone ridicule these succinct expressions of reason as a "screed"?  I must say, my estimation of BarneyF/JakaB/JK has greatly appreciated.  

 

 

Post of the year!!!

[Wayne_Kozun]

I am guessing it hasn't been played by many on here but Nirwana in Bali is a great course and I doubt it is walkable as it is always so hot and humid there, even early in the morning.  I often walk on 90+ days but I found it almost unbearable in a cart with a caddy where you are drenched by the time you get to the 2nd tee.

[Tom_Doak]

I am guessing it hasn't been played by many on here but Nirwana in Bali is a great course and I doubt it is walkable as it is always so hot and humid there, even early in the morning.  I often walk on 90+ days but I found it almost unbearable in a cart with a caddy where you are drenched by the time you get to the 2nd tee.

This is the problem of golf in most of Asia, the Caribbean, and central / South America.  Even if the course is walkable, it's so hot and humid, nobody wants to walk ... so most courses quickly become cart courses.  Only the Japanese are walkers, because they inherited the caddie culture before World War II, and because Japan is further north and it's only too hot and humid to enjoy for a couple of months in the summer, like Atlanta.

[Mike Sweeney]

This is the problem of golf in most of Asia, the Caribbean, and central / South America.  Even if the course is walkable, it's so hot and humid, nobody wants to walk ... so most courses quickly become cart courses.  Only the Japanese are walkers, because they inherited the caddie culture before World War II, and because Japan is further north and it's only too hot and humid to enjoy for a couple of months in the summer, like Atlanta.

74 degrees yesterday at Lido Golf Club, I played with two guys in their 30's who had been playing golf in their post-college life. They were both super fit, and we played in less than 4 hours. I walked and burned 1500+ calories. They took a cart and were going to the gym after the round:




The golf authorities really missed the fitness era and messaging to this demographic. They were super nice guys to play with, but if you don't want to walk a dead flat course on a breezy and 74 degree day, something is off...

[Cal Seifert]

This is the problem of golf in most of Asia, the Caribbean, and central / South America.  Even if the course is walkable, it's so hot and humid, nobody wants to walk ... so most courses quickly become cart courses.  Only the Japanese are walkers, because they inherited the caddie culture before World War II, and because Japan is further north and it's only too hot and humid to enjoy for a couple of months in the summer, like Atlanta.

74 degrees yesterday at Lido Golf Club, I played with two guys in their 30's who had been playing golf in their post-college life. They were both super fit, and we played in less than 4 hours. I walked and burned 1500+ calories. They took a cart and were going to the gym after the round:




The golf authorities really missed the fitness era and messaging to this demographic. They were super nice guys to play with, but if you don't want to walk a dead flat course on a breezy and 74 degree day, something is off...

Same happened to me yesterday at Bethpage Red. Playing partner took a cart and said he has to do cycling class to get some excercise in later.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious.

Did either of you ask if they had considered walking to get their exercise in for the day or at least supplement it? 

P.S.  I don't know why any course with a fleet of carts would not encourage them as a revenue source?  Whether you agree with carts or not, its additional revenue when many courses are struggling to make ends meet...

[Lou_Duran]

Maybe some folks don't like carrying their clubs or paying a middle-aged looper $25/hr.  Perhaps the cart allows them to attend to business which is increasingly done on the phone without impacting the pace of play.  Possibly the carts allow them to better care for the course by sanding all their divots and some of those left unrepaired by walkers.  And quite likely, these riders understand the importance of cart revenues to the bottom line and are willing to support the club.  I wonder if there is a study of trunk slammers and F & B support- relative % riders and walkers. 


(NOTE: Before anyone sends a banishment email to Ran, please consider that I walk the vast majority of my rounds EVEN when I don't have to pay for a cart.  And I typically carry a small sand bottle which I replenish with bunker sand three or four times during the round.  Though not quite as much as with the 1% who bear the tax burden so I can go light on the tab, I really appreciate these good folks making it cheaper for me to enjoy my golf.  Oh, and some even let me play with them, my clubs clanking as they try to set up for their shots.)


Relative to JT's question, in the U.S. at least, (90%+ at my easy-to-walk 5.4 mile home course) appear to prefer riding to walking (probably a primary reason for some private clubs imposing mandatory caddie rules).  If golf is to be enjoyed as opposed to be endured, would we entrust a relative few to define greatness so narrowly?

[Thomas Dai]

Like them or not, but buggies are the only way for certain golfers, whether they be aged or infirm or handicapped etc, to experience even playing golf let along experience it on ‘great’ courses.
Atb

[Mike Sweeney]

  If golf is to be enjoyed as opposed to be endured, would we entrust a relative few to define greatness so narrowly?

Lou,


I am NOT Fidel Castro. Through the miracle of marriage, I own part of a Qualitative Research company so I am a curious guy about how people take in information and make decisions. Who was dictating? Just trying to figure out how fit guys did not see walking a golf course as a workout.


It was a Sunday, it was NOT Texas heat and humidity. It was 74 degrees, low humidity, and then they were going to the gym to workout after riding in a cart for 4 hours....


Kalen,


I live in NYC. Lido has a captured market on their barrier island. The less than four hour round was amazing. I chose not to ask my newly paired with golf partners about their preferred method of playing golf in the same way that I did not ask them who they voted for, who they married, and how they are going to raise their kids in a first and probably only meeting. We talked about golf stuff like No Laying Up kind of guys. Topics included - beer in Ireland and wind screwing with our shots. Things were easier in Ireland  

[Lou_Duran]

MikeS,


Wow, that's a rather strange retort.  Fidel?  Me dictating?  I was just giving you some reasons, valid in my opinion, why some fit guys might choose to ride a golf cart and workout at a later time.  You've met my son, a pretty logical guy in most people's estimation.  He resembles your companions at Lido.  He'll walk with me, but his preference is to ride and go do his controlled workout at his convenience.  I suspect that he won't look like me when he reaches my age.

For a "curious guy" involved in opinions research are you just shopping for what fits your thesis?  Confirmation bias would seem to be counterproductive in your business.   


The reply did bring to mind a letter-to-the-editor from a Dallas Morning News reader ripping the paper a new one for printing a piece from an environmentalist activist advocating adaptation as part of the strategy for dealing with anthropogenic global warming.  It never ceases to amaze how illiberal any number of "liberals" are today.


Not that you're among those and that there is anything wrong with your observation about walking and fitness, but isn't there any room in your calculus that someone else, perhaps a large number, might enjoy something- their golf- differently than you?  Perhaps if I lived in an area where a Mayor can dictate the size of my soft drink or be shamed about how much salt I put on my burger I too would become inured to a system which prescribes my choices (even when I am willing to pay for them!).   And how was that for an overreaction?

[Lou_Duran]

Wow!  Is this what this site has become?

Ran, are you willing to tolerate this?


I could not have made my point better.

[JESII]

Would be unfortunate if this post is not addressed...

[V. Kmetz]

Like they said in the schoolyards of youth...


"You smelt' it; you dealt it."


But just like a typical Trump sissy... "Teachuh, I got moy' wittle bonespurs hoit...."


And Ran can pull my plug anytime; I merely hope:

• He lets me publish my full response to his 147 List
• You go too

[V. Kmetz]

Would be unfortunate if this post is not addressed...

Sure...people losing sleep all over the place...big stuff here...

[JESII]

Didn’t say it was big stuff...but it’s clear you’ve lost the point and need to reset.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

Clear to who?  Many of us feel the same as VK, and even thou he may have worded it differently, he was just re-stating Rans already existing by-laws on incessant political posts...

[corey miller]

Worded it differently?

[JESII]

If post #117 didn’t strike you as completely out of line, you too should consider a reset.


Addressing Lou’s content can be handled in two very easy ways...this isn’t on the list.

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