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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #225 on: October 21, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »
Round 8:

After a pummeling in round 7, Kingsley tries to rebound while Crystal Downs goes for the knockout.

I wonder how Mackenzie found the routing of the 8th at Crystal Downs. Perhaps it was found right away, as it feels like one of the more obvious greensites on the property. Did that then create a terrain utilization conundrum that led to the creative explosion on holes like 5 and 7 that feel like before-their-time takes on routing over rambunctious terrain? Or did holes like 5 and 7 jump out right away, making 8 a necessity just to get back to the golf shop and that beautiful 10th tee without back-to-back holes that play severely uphill (obviously 9 is uphill, but not nearly to the extent that 8 is)? Either way, it feels like a stroke of genius to me, and a hole without which the entire course and routing falls apart. A rare par 5 that can still stand up to modern equipment and swing speeds, it’s a hole that maintains its equitability for players with different skill sets by demanding equal parts power and finesse. While pencil and scorecard players will decry it as unfair, it nonetheless undoubtedly rewards the player who executes each shot best and punishes severely he who fails. A heavyweight with power and finesse is hard for anyone to beat.

8 at Kingsley is a wonderful finesse hole with similarly stringent demands on the player. I’d like to play it again when not trying to score or win a point. I always went up the right-center on that hole, which gives what looks like a good angle into the green but results in a somewhat one-dimensional tee shot for me, as virtually any club I hit ends up in the same place (shorter clubs catch more of the kickplate and thus roll forward to within a yard or two of where longer clubs settle). The left side just didn’t look appealing to me, but I hear it’s viable and it surely can’t leave a more difficult second shot. Kingsley might be the toughest test of wedge play from 70-120 yards of any course I’ve seen.

Of course, while Kingsley’s 8th has finesse, it lacks the power that Crystal’s 8th has. I’m afraid this is another ugly round, though no fault of Kingsley’s. 8 at Crystal Downs is not only a great hole, but a hole that must inevitably score well in the format I've chosen with its blend of power, finesse, and style. #RespectTheGame. I like 8 at Kingsley very much, but just think it finds itself overmatched here. Still, it stays on its feet and lives to throw a low blow in the next round. Is this still a fight? Boxing is full of corruption, so I wouldn't put anything past a judge on the last 10 holes. #RespectTheGame.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 78, KC 71
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 12:26:32 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #226 on: October 21, 2013, 12:40:18 PM »

8 at Kingsley is a wonderful finesse hole with similarly stringent demands on the player. I’d like to play it again when not trying to score or win a point. I always went up the right-center on that hole, which gives what looks like a good angle into the green but results in a somewhat one-dimensional tee shot for me, as virtually any club I hit ends up in the same place (shorter clubs catch more of the kickplate and thus roll forward to within a yard or two of where longer clubs settle). The left side just didn’t look appealing to me, but I hear it’s viable and it surely can’t leave a more difficult second shot. Kingsley might be the toughest test of wedge play from 70-120 yards of any course I’ve seen.

I've come to prefer the left side on #8.  My first year as a member I almost always played up the right side, but last year going left started to make more sense to me.  I take just enough club to stay short of the bunker and aim for its left edge.  The green slopes generally from back right to front left, so you're hitting your approach shot directly into the slope, and I think visually it's easier to see that you need an extra club due to both the elevation change and the need to carry the greenside bunker.  You probably need an extra club (or bigger cut at a wedge) from the right side as well, but it's tougher to visualize, and it's easy (for me anyway) to leave it short from over there.  Going left brings the greenside bunker directly into play, which could be seen as a negative, but I think it's probably an easier up and down (or at least an easier 5) from there than it is short or right, where it's quite common to leave your pitch short of the target, which means your ball is likely to end up back at your feet.  Along with #2, it's probably my favorite hole on the front nine.

Loved #8 at CD as well, but that's largely because I made a great up and down for par on a day when it was playing into the wind.  Our host assured me that in that wind, five was a really great score, and I wasn't about to disagree.  

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #227 on: October 21, 2013, 12:46:35 PM »
Bill, I recall you mentioning that you prefer the left side during the Mashie a few times. I had a hard time convincing myself to go that way. Of course, part of that was that I was struggling with my swing and figured there was more room to miss right. The two shots I feel I most missed out on in my three days there were probably the shot up the left side of 8 and the solid, straight drive on 17 (I sprayed it everywhere but straight on that hole).
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #228 on: October 21, 2013, 02:22:38 PM »
Bill, I recall you mentioning that you prefer the left side during the Mashie a few times. I had a hard time convincing myself to go that way. Of course, part of that was that I was struggling with my swing and figured there was more room to miss right. The two shots I feel I most missed out on in my three days there were probably the shot up the left side of 8 and the solid, straight drive on 17 (I sprayed it everywhere but straight on that hole).


Actually, there's more room to the left of the bunker.


"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Matthew Lloyd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #229 on: October 21, 2013, 03:30:47 PM »
Totally agree that it's an easier play from the left side on #8 at Kingsley.  As mentioned above, there is more room to the left and if you really boom your drive you can roll it well past the bunker anyway.  The approach over the bunker looks like a more challenging shot than the relatively open approach from the right. But I agree that as long as you clear the bunker it's a more forgiving shot.  Plus your shots tend to hold the green better, whereas shots from the right that are mishit by mere inches can roll back 20 yards.  

Despite admittedly being a Kingsley homer (and loving this hole), I agree with all the posters about #8 at CD winning this round.  That hole is a beast, and as somebody who has only played CD once, probably the most memorable hole on the course for me.  

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #230 on: October 21, 2013, 03:31:50 PM »
Howard, I'm talking about room for BIG misses like the ones I was prone to during Mashie week. It's true that the left fairway is a bit wider, but those trees left don't give much room for a pull and felt very much in play for me at the time. Taking the right side it's possible to send a big block into the native cut, but there's plenty of room for a pull and a slight push will get sent back toward the middle of the fairway by the kickplate.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #231 on: October 21, 2013, 06:08:37 PM »
For the Kingsley novice, #8 is not visually intimidating like #17 Sawgrass, #10 Pebble Beach, #16 Cypress or others that spring to mind. There’s no water or OB to fear.

Rather, it’s a short par 4 with an elevated tee and a centerline bunker. From the fairway, the fear lies in the menacing green that slopes heavily back right to front left and falls off in three directions. A backstop is available but often rendered useless for all but a front pin as it aggressively repels shots forward. 

For me, the approach shot on #8 joins the tee shot on #2 as the most intimidating at Kingsley. I don’t care where the pin is located. I just want to be putting and not from the collection area left and right. I’ll take a little more club if necessary and aim for the back center part of the green. 

During the Mashie, my best shot of the weekend was a on #8: a heart-racing 9 iron into a two-club wind from 113 yards to pin high on Sunday. One wouldn’t expect that their ‘best shot’ would be from 113 yards. But that’s the scar tissue inflicted by #8 after a season of play.







"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #232 on: October 21, 2013, 10:33:54 PM »
The 8th at crystal is just a wonderful par 5.  Demanding, unique, cool.  Just a very fun hole. Lays beautifully.

8 th at Kingsley is mildly quirky with a green that sheds balls.  My 3 wood off the tee generally leaves me yet another wedge...anyone else seeing a theme.  Visually attractive and well done, it fails to compete with the all world opponent...

I haven't noticed anyone else pointing out the relatively large number of wedge approaches at Kingsley.

Beat down in full swing.. CD up 5 holes.  On the ten pt must Crystal leads by 8...

Bart

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #233 on: October 21, 2013, 11:10:12 PM »
I've only been around Kingsley 4 times and Crystal once, but I'll put up a card.

Hole 1...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 2...Kingsley 10-7 (one of the best par 3's in the world, IMO.  And 2 at The Downs didn't do it for me)
Hole 3...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 4...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 5...Crystal 10-9
Hole 6...Crystal 10-8
Hole 7...Crystal 10-8
Hole 8...Crystal 10-8
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #234 on: October 21, 2013, 11:15:11 PM »
The 8th at crystal is just a wonderful par 5.  Demanding, unique, cool.  Just a very fun hole. Lays beautifully.

8 th at Kingsley is mildly quirky with a green that sheds balls.  My 3 wood off the tee generally leaves me yet another wedge...anyone else seeing a theme.  Visually attractive and well done, it fails to compete with the all world opponent...

I haven't noticed anyone else pointing out the relatively large number of wedge approaches at Kingsley.

Beat down in full swing.. CD up 5 holes.  On the ten pt must Crystal leads by 8...

Bart


Bart-
What have you hit for your approach shots at CD? I seem to remember it being ~6500 yards and I assume you must be a fairly long-hitter (or the wind in Northern Michigan must always blow at your back).

Buck


Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #235 on: October 21, 2013, 11:29:58 PM »
I probably hit the ball on average about 265. I have a wedge into #1 about half the time, assuming I've hit my first two shots ok, and almost never when the pin is back. I never hit wedge into 2 (off the tee, anyway).  I maybe hit wedge into 3 half the time. I almost never hit wedge into four, unless the pin is up. Six depends on the wind, and it's probably wedge half the time, but usually three wood off the tee.  Seven depends on whether I decide to lay back or not, assuming my first two shots have gone according to plan. Eight is probably wedge half the time, and nine iron half the time, maybe a touch more depending on the wind.

Is it possible that I'll have wedge into every par 4 and 5?  I suppose so.  Does it ever happen?  Nope.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #236 on: October 22, 2013, 10:09:32 AM »
Crystal Downs - 175 yards - Par 3
Rarely do you see an uphill par 3 that works so perfectly.  This hole is probably is significantly uphill, but for some reason it doesn't feel like it.  It only feels like the hole is uphill to obscure the flag just slightly.  I feel like it played almost to its actual yardage, with the front fairway portion providing a bit of a kick to shots played short.  Stay below the pin, again on this hole as a beautiful green with great internal contours slopes from back to front pretty severely.  This is a devilish little cherry on the top of one of the finest front nines in the world.

From the tee one can see the severe uphill nature of the hole - I found it to play surprisingly close to its actual yardage


A beautiful image that shows the close relation of the front nine - obviously with the 9th green in the foreground - with the 1st, 2nd, and 4th holes visible, the 6th green and a sliver of the 7th fairway


Kingsley Club #9 - 165 yards - Par 3
Along with #2, one of the more controversial holes on the course.  A tiny boomerang shaped green guarded by 4 bunkers, steep falloffs and a large mound in the "bend" of the boomerang.  The great thing about #9 is the variety of ways the hole can play, given the different tee boxes and pin positions.  It can play pretty easy, with a great chance at an ace if playing off the west tee boxes and west most pin position, or it can play borderline impossible if the pin would ever be put on the hump (fortunately I never saw that position - and didn't spoil my opinion of the hole).  Unlike #2 however, I thought there were a variety of recovery options if you did miss the green.  All the bunkers are relatively safe misses thanks to the contours of the green and the only truly bad place to miss was left.  I thought the green was just green, affording many possibilities to get the ball close off the tee.  I don't really know what the difference is between them, but I liked #9 much better than #2, but they were both still in the bottom of the collection of par 3s at Kingsley in my opinion.

The view from the south tee, with the pin in the southern peninsula of the green - we played this set up downwind and 3 players in the group made par (except for me as I had a simple 3 putt - if you see a trend in my game, let me know  :D)


The 9th at CD is an excellent way to finish off the front nine, and it is a really fun, demanding tee shot that you just don't see much of anymore.  It seems like a slight let down after the first 8 holes you have just played - but I don't know what wouldn't.  The 9th at KC is a demanding short par 3...it seems to play much shorter than #2 in my opinion, even if that's not quite the case based on yardages.  The green is really cool and gives a ton of options on the tee shot, whichever way you come into it.   I actually think I was cumulative under par in 6 tries at this hole.    This is a really close decision in a battle between two completely different and really good par 3s.  I give this one by a nose, to Kingsley.  Crystal Downs 3 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP


Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #237 on: October 22, 2013, 10:15:22 AM »
Bart, I hear what you are saying about the wedges into the greens at Kingsley.  I had a lot of them all the way through the course, which I think is a bit of a byproduct of its firm and fast nature.

However, they may have been wedge yardage - but they were anything but standard wedge shots.  They required different techniques and were all very unique shots that you may not have to play anywhere else.  Extremely fun.  But you are probably right in that you better be dialed in from 80 - 130 yards.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #238 on: October 22, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »
Round 9

The first half of the battle concludes with a pair of dicey, short to mid-length par 3s.

The 9th at Crystal Downs throws its first punch on your practice swing, as you'll be teeing off on an uphill lie. The hole plays more decisively uphill and back to the pro shop. The green slopes uphill. To this judge, the 9th at Crystal Downs is a transition hole that had to be built if we were going to get from the fabulous final 150 yards of the 8th hole to the fabulous first 150 yards of the 10th. For the first time, it feels like the Downs is cruising through a round and trusting its superior reputation and current scorecard advantage to coast for a few minutes.

The 9th at Kingsley is exactly what you would expect a young challenger to throw at an overly conservative round from a champion. It's another transition hole (arguably the third in a row as we move from the fantastic field holding 2-6 to cross the road for the back nine), but cleverly constructed with its multiple teeing grounds and far from the breather one might expect from a short par 3 that closes a side. It gets plenty of criticism for its severity, and a certain amount is probably warranted. But if we're being honest, it's really a classic "tough par, easy bogey" hole that just has a landmine or two that can give a bad break. The green, once on the correct side of the dogleg, is fairly straightforward by Kingsley standards. The green is a tiny target, and it's not easy to get one close on a pitch shot if you miss, but just about anyone should have 30 feet or less for par unless they hit an atrocious pitch or get buried under the face of one of the bunkers (which admittedly seems to happen pretty regularly).

This round really could go either way. I'm not as impressed with Kingsley's 9th at some, but I'm also not all that impressed by Crystal's. When in doubt, the aggressor wins the round. Kingsley's 9th throws a lot of punches for being undersized and a little shoehorned in. Crystal's 9th feels like it's resting for a hole, which is understandable and maybe even appreciated by the player who just finished 4-8 but isn't going to win a round in this format.

Kingsley wins the round 10-9, but it becomes a 10-8 round after a 1 point deduction to Crystal for a low blow due to the uphill sloping tee. Somehow, the head butts from some of the over-penal lies around the 9th at Kingsley are ignored, and Kingsley goes back to its corner with renewed energy for the second half of the matchup.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7
8th round: CD wins 10 - 9
9th round: KC wins 10 - 8

Running Total: CD 86, KC 81
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #239 on: October 22, 2013, 11:03:11 AM »
Jason, that's a pretty good account of both 9s.  I like KC #9 just a bit more, but 9-11 feels like the weak (or maybe not quite as strong) sections on both the courses.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #240 on: October 22, 2013, 11:14:45 AM »
Good photo of Kingsley 9 from the club website --I think this is from the South Red tee
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #241 on: October 22, 2013, 01:26:00 PM »
On to hole #10

Kingsley Club #10 - 446 yards - Par 4
The 10th at Kingsley is a pretty straightforward affair.  From the tips it's a pretty stout hole, but from either tee it didn't appear either the left or right side was preferred.  Just avoid the bunkers to have an uphill approach to another very solid green.  The green is what makes this hole.  It is a two-tiered affair, with an elevated right side dropping into the left side.  I don't know if this is the case, but it seemed to slope front to back and because of it's exposed location, was consistently the hardest and fastest green on the course.  If the pin is up on the right tier, it was better to miss a couple yards to the right rather than down on the left side of the green.  A very challenging and fun hole, if not a bit unmemorable.

This view offers a look at the fairway and the green in the distance.  A great feature of this hole is the big, grassy dune left and short of the green.  This will help propel some slightly mishit balls onto the putting surface.



Crystal Downs - 395 yards - Par 4
Another beautiful view from atop the hill out towards Crystal Lake.  The clubhouse being withing a couple club lengths of the tee is pretty cool as well.  I wish I would have hit a better tee ball, because it is really cool watching the ball float in the air for what seems like an eternity before landing down in the valley.  Like #10 at KC, I couldn't discern a preferred side of the fairway.  Left allows a little better look into the green, without having to carry a cavernous bunker, however the serious green contours may make the green easier to attack from the right.   Regardless, a high, soft mid-iron is required up the hill to a well defended green.  The green is severe even by CD perspective, sloping incredibly from back left to front right.  We played to a middle right pin.  Coming in from the left, I thought I missed way left, only to see the shot grab the slop start rolling right and towards the back, take a complete u-turn and end up with 10 or so feet, saving me from another 3 putt.  I can't imagine a back left pin though.  That would be sadistic.

The beautiful vista of the 10th tee - in the shadows of the clubhouse staring down onto the hole


A beautiful image of the 10th green - however this doesn't even come close to showing the severe contours of the green



For some reason, I find these two holes remarkably similar, even though from the tee they appear nothing alike.  They are both holes defined by their green complexes and solid holes, although I doubt many would consider either their favorite holes on either course.  They both seem like holes that would grow on a player through additional plays, filled with nuance from tee to green.  I'm going to give this one to Crystal Downs, mainly based on the view from the tee, although the green at KC may be one of my favorite on the course...sometimes you just need a little eye candy.  Crystal Downs 4 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#10 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #242 on: October 22, 2013, 02:39:29 PM »
Before seeing Crystal Downs in person I had very low expectations for the 9th hole.  I had heard the legend about how it was added later after Dr. Mac forgot a hole, and otherwise had not heard too much positive. Maybe my low expectations had something to do with it, but I was impressed.   Quality uphill par 3s seem to be quite rare, and CD9 is one of them. As is perhaps a Dr. Mac, trademark it looks like a bear but playing it is a pleasure.

Overall, CD 8&9 are a formidable uphill combo. Obviously they also serve the purpose of getting the golfer back to the clubhouse, but in this case that constraint may have greatly enhanced the course.  These days when even the best designers seem to shy away from the challenge of an uphill stretch I guess this counts for something extra in my book.

As for Kingsley 9, I've said my piece, but do have a question.  What is the playability like in high wind?  Or is wind not a factor at Kingsley?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 02:41:39 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matthew Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #243 on: October 22, 2013, 02:46:44 PM »
A quick question regarding the 9th at CD. How small is that target up on the hill? I'm assuming the included photo distorts the scale of the hole a bit. It looks like just a little tug to the left can lead to very bad things. Of course, it's not like it is going up against an uber-accomodating hole in KC #9.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #244 on: October 22, 2013, 02:49:53 PM »
David,
I totally agree, I think 8 & 9 are two of the finest uphill holes I've played.  For some reason they both seem to utilize the uphill nature in strategic effect rather than just "getting up the hill"

As for 9 at Kingsley.  I found it much more playable in general than #2.  Perhaps its because the hole isn't up on an exposed plateau but it doesn't seem quite as fearsome in the wind.  We played in a really stiff wind on the last day of the mashie, and found it to be very playable.  The wind added a some difficulty but I still think our group carded 2 pars and 2 bogeys.


Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #245 on: October 22, 2013, 03:00:47 PM »
As for Kingsley 9, I've said my piece, but do have a question.  What is the playability like in high wind?  Or is wind not a factor at Kingsley?

I've played it quite a bit, and I can't recall wind ever making it unplayable.  It's not quite as exposed as #2, where the wind can make the hole much tougher.  It's somewhat protected by the hill and clubhouse behind it, and the mounds and surrounds in front of it.  It obviously depends on what tees you're playing and where the pin is that day, as there about six different combinations you can wind up with.  The wind will generally either be out of the north or south, which means you're dealing with cross winds from the west tee and playing it either downwind or into the wind from the south tee, at which case it plays (for me) anywhere between a five iron and a nine iron.  

From the south tees, one would think playing it downwind would be much tougher, but when the pin is in the west bowl or on the shelf, you can use the backstop to an extent, and if it's on the south lobe, there's a fair amount of room front to back, especially with a short iron.  In a headwind, the ball will obviously stop much quicker, so the longer iron isn't a problem.

From west tees, the preferred wind is out of the south, which will move the ball back toward the clubhouse.  Basically you can hang it out over the inside of the boomerang and let the wind bring it back.  Inside the boomerang is the preferred miss, so worst case scenario, you've got the easiest recovery.  I think it actually plays easier when the wind is out of the south than when there's no wind blowing at all.  When the wind is out of the north, I'm probably taking more club and playing a punch shot to keep it down, at least when the pin is in the bowl or on the shelf.  It's kind of hit and pray when it's on the south lobe, but the good news there is that you're taking the ball out over the fat of the green, so if you play for too much wind, a well struck shot should still leave you putting.  

One other thing to remember about that north wind is that while it makes #9 a little tougher, it's the easier wind on #5 (and probably the preferred wind on #2), and it's already given the golfer a pretty big advantage on #s 1, 3, and 6 (it's hurting on 4, 7, and 8, which are all pretty short approaches).  As mentioned before, one of the things I like about Kingsley is how the wind can really make individual holes easier or tougher, but the course plays just about the same on the whole when the wind is in either direction.  

I'd also take issue with Josh's comment that you can't miss left.  First, left and right is relative depending on the tee you're playing.  The only places you can't miss are a) up on the hill, and b) right of the green as viewed from the south tees.  Anything inside the boomerang is very playable, and if the pin is in the bowl, there's really no excuse for not making a three.  The other way you can get screwed on #9 (like just about every hole at Kingsley except #12) is if your shot rolls toward a bunker, but doesn't get all the way in.  If it hangs up in the hair, it's big trouble.  

Matthew Lloyd

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Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #246 on: October 22, 2013, 03:03:07 PM »
Huge fan of both #9s and both #10s on these courses.  

I love but don't understand the controversy over #9 at Kingsley.  All that matters is how much fun this hole is to play.  So what if it blows up your scorecard.  So what if you can't recover.  For the pure suspense and exhilaration of stepping onto that tee and not knowing what the hell is going to happen, it is tough to beat.  The gold tee from the boxes running parallel to the parking lot (not sure what direction that is) that gives you a 130 yard wedge shot --- so much fun.  I could stay there all day and hit one shot after another.  

And I agree completely with some of the earlier posters (from days before) about how you should be able to hit a 130 yard shot where you want it.  If not any punishment is fair game if you ask me.  I've scored everywhere between a 2 and a 13 on this hole but I've enjoyed it every time.

Agree that the #10 holes are similar, I give CD the edge there.  #10 is one of the few holes on Kingsley that I find a little boring.  It's all relative, of course.


Josh Tarble

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Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #247 on: October 22, 2013, 03:07:38 PM »
As for Kingsley 9, I've said my piece, but do have a question.  What is the playability like in high wind?  Or is wind not a factor at Kingsley?
I'd also take issue with Josh's comment that you can't miss left.  First, left and right is relative depending on the tee you're playing.  The only places you can't miss are a) up on the hill, and b) right of the green as viewed from the south tees.  Anything inside the boomerang is very playable, and if the pin is in the bowl, there's really no excuse for not making a three.  The other way you can get screwed on #9 (like just about every hole at Kingsley except #12) is if your shot rolls toward a bunker, but doesn't get all the way in.  If it hangs up in the hair, it's big trouble.  

I said left, but meant up the hill (or left from the west tees)...thanks for clarifying.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #248 on: October 22, 2013, 03:19:38 PM »
I was thinking this was one of the windier parts of the property, but apparently I was mistaken.  Sometimes on a small (maybe narrow would be a better word) severe green the wind can be a factor not just on the approach/tee shot but also on the recovery shots and even on the putting, because the ball just doesn't stop.   My recollection of the hole is that balls didn't want to stay on even on attempts at safe recovery shots.  But the course was brand new then so perhaps more severe or maybe we had unusual conditions.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill Seitz

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Re: The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event
« Reply #249 on: October 22, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »
I was thinking this was one of the windier parts of the property, but apparently I was mistaken.  Sometimes on a small (maybe narrow would be a better word) severe green the wind can be a factor not just on the approach/tee shot but also on the recovery shots and even on the putting, because the ball just doesn't stop.   My recollection of the hole is that balls didn't want to stay on even on attempts at safe recovery shots.  But the course was brand new then so perhaps more severe or maybe we had unusual conditions.

Maybe Matt Schmidt will chime in if he's reading this.  He was up there for the weekend of the club championship this year and said things were very firm by that Sunday, and that it made #9 play very difficult, but I've never seen it quite that severe.  

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