[Mark Bourgeois]

CB Macdonald wrote, "Time is not able to bring forth new truths but only an unfolding of timeless truths."


Here is Ganton's 3rd:



And here it is flipped horizontally and compared to another short 4:




Perhaps it's just coincidence -- or perhaps it's an example supporting Macdonald. Regardless, the question is: what timeless truths about architecture can be learned by exploring this comparison? Use either / both the comparison to Ganton flipped or Ganton original.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I really like the Ganton hole for it's simplicity.
Love the trench type bunker on the side of the approach.
Does the cross bunker hide some of the view of the green?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Don,

Bunkers at Ganton tend not to flash too high above grade -- here's the cluster of bunkers in the dogleg on 7:


...So the green is visible from 3 tee -- the green rests on the ground as well though so I would not call it "presented" to the golfer on the tee, if you get my drift. Here's an example of that, again from 7 green (did I mention how much I love the 7th? I could bang on forever about the strategy of this hole. BTW there is a lot more going on with this green than the photo shows, eg the false front and slope to the right -- wicked putting on this green):



Back to the 3rd and your question: that bunker appears hard against the green, so there is that form of visual intimidation. (In reality, you can see by the aerials there's plenty of room past the bunker.)

Here is Sean's recent pic from 3 tee:


And here's my poor photo from a few years ago:


Interestingly, on the day I took the pic the hole played directly into a strong wind, such that the bunker could not be carried and had to be negotiated. The choice was either lay up or skirt it to the right. The hole location encouraged the golfer to challenge the bunker: too far right off the tee and the "trench" bunker as you aptly call it was in play. BUT: at the same time the trouble long and slickness of the green makes the golfer pause before getting aggressive. So maybe you want to lay back enough to have a full wedge.

And for these reasons I think the hole might play more difficult in a strong downwind.

Decisions and indecisions.  

[William_G]

CB Macdonald wrote, "Time is not able to bring forth new truths but only an unfolding of timeless truths."


Mark...great, great, great quote

I had just this morning been thinking about what is most valuable to me on a daily basis in this selfish/internet/hyped out world of today...and that is "timeless relationships"

thanks for that reminder and the beauty of the golf pics, simplicity in golf is timeless

[Thomas Dai]

Mark,
Would your comparison short par-4 hole be the famous 10th at Riviera?
Reference the unfolding of timeless truths, it's there a comment by some famous general/politician/statesmen about there being nothing new, and suggesting that folk should read history? Can't remember exactly who said it. Churchill maybe?
All the best

[Mark Bourgeois]

William and Thomas, yes it is the type of quote around which one can build an entire design philosophy -- and which CBM did.

Thomas, yes that's Riviera 10. I am not sure which quote you are trying to recall. Maybe the Harvard philosopher Santayana? Another favorite of mine on this general topic is Faulker, who said, "The past isn't dead. It's not even past."

[Rich Goodale]

Mark (and Thomas)

I assume that vis a vis Santayana you are referring to:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

My favorite of his, however, has always been:

"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests."

Same idea, particularly if in reference to those of us who think that the McDonald's of the world were "gods."

[Thomas Dai]

Mark (and Thomas)
I assume that vis a vis Santayana you are referring to:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Rich, in my case you assume correctly. I must confess to not knowing that the original line is "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." and who authored it but now I do, so many thanks Rich. It's amazingly what your learn on GCA!
All the best.

[Rich Goodale]

Mark (and Thomas)
I assume that vis a vis Santayana you are referring to:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Rich, in my case you assume correctly. I must confess to not knowing that the original line is "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." and who authored it but now I do, so many thanks Rich. It's amazingly what your learn on GCA!
All the best.

Thanks, Thomas

Of course, if you want to dig deeper, go to Confucius, who said 2500 years ago:

"Study the past if you would define the future."

As well as:

"Respect yourself and others will respect you." (or as Claudius bloviated in Hamlet "To thine own self be true.")

and:

“Do unto others what you want done unto you.”  (or as the Greeks and then the Bible said, Umm, pretty much the same thing....)

Rich


    

[Thomas Dai]

.... if you want to dig deeper..... 

Who was it that said "when you're already in a hole stop digging"?!!!
ATB

[JC Jones]

Mark,

The 10th at Riviera is pretty much a spot on Cape hole.  The hole that comes to mind when looking at that aerial of the bunkering at Ganton and the green at Riviera is #14 at Chicago Golf Club.

Though I wonder if you're on to something....perhaps the philosophy behind the Cape wasn't a CBM original but a take on Ganton with a green site that jutted out into the water? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

For those of us who have never played the hole, could you add yardage markers at every 50 yards, tee to green, so that we can better understand how the features come into play.

Thanks

[Peter Pallotta]

Ganton has Angles, but without the capital "A". Very English.

P

[Brent Hutto]

Ganton has Angles, but without the capital "A". Very English.

P

Just so. And well stated, P.

[BCrosby]

Mark (and Thomas)

I assume that vis a vis Santayana you are referring to:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

My favorite of his, however, has always been:

"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests."

Or better yet William Faulkner:

"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past."

Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bob, that's a great quote.

JC, can you post an aerial of Chicago 14? I am not sure Riviera 10 is a Cape as the green does not jut out into air or water, does it? Also, a Cape doesn't have that short left bunker on Riv 10. Still, you make a very interesting comparison. They do have similarities, don't they?

Regarding Macdonald's Cape, I'm pretty sure Ganton 3 was changed to its current state after NGLA was completed. Maybe reverse your order of events and you have an argument to make.  

Patrick, how's this:

[DMoriarty]

For the sake of completeness, Macdonald was quoting Prince Puckler, the 19th century landscape gardener.  At the beginning of the same chapter he quoted Humphry Repton, who wrote something along the same lines . . .

If it should appear that, instead of displaying new doctrines, or furnishing novel ideas, it serves rather, by a new method, to elucidate old established principles, and to confirm long received opinions, I can only plead in my excuse, that true taste, in every art, consists more in adapting tried expedients to peculiar circumstances, than in that inordinate thirst after novelty, the characteristic of uncultivated minds, which, from the facility of inventing wild theories, without experience, are apt to suppose, that taste is displayed by novelty, genius by innovation, and that every change must necessarily tend to improvement.

[JC Jones]

Mark,

I'd say the green at Riviera turns and juts out and is surrounded on 3 sides by hazard.  Also note on the image below the presence of the bunker short right mirroring the bunker short left on Riviera.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Very interesting. What are the yardages required to carry the three fwy bunkers? How long is the hole from tee to front of green?

We could have the making of a template, although the tee on CGC is pushed over to the side, in contrast to the other two. And whatever 'timeless truths' we might be uncovering, I don't think they involve a simple regurgitation of a Cape / Reverse Cape. For starters, Riv and Ganton are driveable or at least drive and pitches whereas Capes tend to be more medium-length 4s. Yes?

BTW shame about the screwed up mowing lines on that CGC hole. Here's how it looked in 1939:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/CGC.html

[JC Jones]

Mark,

14 at CGC is 351 from the tips and the tee is is elevated as it sits on the ridge that runs through that side of the property (even though CGC naysayers say the course is flat, its not.... ).  So, longer hitters and firm conditions/wind could make it driveable or at least a drive and a pitch.

I didn't see 14 at CGC as a cape hole when I played it nor looked at it but I've been told it is a cape and I trust those people who've told me.  That is a long way of telling you that I agree that a simple cape/reverse cape discussion is probably not involved enough.

[DMoriarty]

For starters, Riv and Ganton are driveable or at least drive and pitches whereas Capes tend to be more medium-length 4s. Yes?

Old style "cape" holes were defined by a green jutting out into trouble and they varied in length, but the first so-called "Cape Hole" was NGLA's 14th and it measured about 290 direct line to the hole.   Not quite reachable, but close.   I doubt Riviera's 10th was routinely driveable early on either.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark (and Thomas)

I assume that vis a vis Santayana you are referring to:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

My favorite of his, however, has always been:

"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests."

Or better yet William Faulkner:

"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past."

Bob

That Faulkner line has very recently been the subject of litigation in the US, where it was held that no copyright subsisted in that short line: Faulkner Literary Rights, LLC v. Sony Pictures Classics

[BCrosby]

"That Faulkner line has very recently been the subject of litigation in the US, where it was held that no copyright subsisted in that short line: Faulkner Literary Rights, LLC v. Sony Pictures Classics"

Well, that's certainly a relief.

The more I read about the 'fair use' doctrine, the less I understand it.

Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

Let's unfold some timeless truths -- can we come up with an idealized or template (templatine?) hole?

Assuming Riv 10 / Reverse Ganton 3 as the template, questions:

1) What purpose does the left half of the fairway bunker chevron on R10 serve? Is it necessary or is RG3 (heh) with its "right-half" bunker better?

2) Trouble long: clearly necessary, but which is better: ditch->OB or bunkers (R10 uses two back bunkers)? (Remember we are talking idealized and as such we are ignoring specific sites.)

3) Do RG3's left greenside bunker and R10's short-right "fairway"(=rough) bunker play the same role, ie defend the approach from far right, and if so, which works better? Are either / both necessary?

4) Ideal distances from blue tees to:
     carry left edge of big fwy bunker?
     reach fwy bunker short left of green?
     front of green?
     back of green?

[JC Jones]

Mark,

The issue I have is that I'm just not seeing the similarities you are seeing other than a fairway bunker that comes at a diagonal cross.  R10 is pretty clearly a Cape, especially if you look at it from the back tees and not the front of the front tee as it is depicted.

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