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Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2013, 08:57:11 PM »
Josh,

I'm not sure on the process either.  Kind of feeling my way through this.  I don't know people personally who have been through anything similar either, so this is where you guys come in....

Kevin,

Got it through other means.  Thanks.

PCraig,

 ::)
I never claimed the course where I belong is a masterpiece.  It is a fun course that is inexpensive and convenient, with an active golfing membership with some other pretty good players.  It is a Buck Blankenship built in the 60's.  You probably don't know what that means.  I'm not even sure I have to explain this to you.  I have all the help I need.... 8)

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2013, 09:03:13 PM »
My club used Stratapoint to map and catalogue our trees and lay out a tree replacement program.


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 10:05:17 PM »

We want/have/need to bring in trees or other feature replacement for the golf course in protection against par/sightlines/other golfers.
  
Please keep additional recommendations/comments coming.

Adam,

I hope that you received some helpful suggestions about who to hire. But there is no way the comment you made above will go unchallenged on GCA.COM in 2013. Many a fine course has been screwed up with just such well-intentioned thinking...

If you are talking about safety issues or exterior sightline trees, fine. But if you are talking about interior sightlines, I would suggest that back views and side views of golf holes are quite attractive. And the use of trees as defense against par is extremely questionable and probably will end up with contrived "strategy." If your club is hell bent on creating "bunkers in the sky" I would suggest that you can draw up the plan,  plant them slowly over time, and see how the course plays without the trees. Each new tree had better have a really compelling case for being there...

Cheers,

Bill
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 10:08:29 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2013, 12:48:50 AM »
I have a few links that will give an idea of what Adam's home course looks like:

HCCC's home page: www.henrycountycountryclub.com

A review page with a link to a few photos: http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Courses/Henry%20County%20CC.html

A quick look at Google Maps shows that the course isn't heavily treed by any stretch, and the current trees don't encroach heavily on the lines of play. HCCC is a farmland course that's similar to what you'll find all over Kentucky. It's a low-budget layout from the 1960s, built by Buck Blankenship (who built basically every course in Central Kentucky in the 50s and 60s, and probably is responsible for most of the state's golf reputation) on terrain that isn't especially interesting and with a lack of architectural features overall.

It's a semi-private club that does well by keeping green fees low and conditions above average. They're not going to do a full scale renovation, as much as we might like to advise one.

Their board doesn't have a ton of flexibility in an architectural or financial sense. What they do have is a will to make sure they do things correctly. They deserve commendation for looking to hire an architect to supervise the changes they're making. Planting trees, as we all know, is much riskier on a golf course than it sounds. It's not fair to evaluate this club the way we would evaluate a Golden Age course built by an ODG. Its objectives are very different.

I do think efforts to "protect par" with trees are misguided. Adam, you're a good player. I'm betting you rarely are hampered by trees around the course any more than you would be by thick rough, especially when you're playing well enough to challenge par. I've somehow never played the course (I lived in Pleasureville down the road for a while growing up), but I've seen it many times in person and in photos and most of the trees are well back from the lines of play, which is one of several things that the course has gotten right over the last 50 years. The guys who put par in danger just aren't hitting in them very often out there I would guess. HCCC would get torched by a pro, as would most courses. The point is, the trees really aren't stopping anyone from shooting par but they might be stopping some higher handicappers from finding balls or being able to make swings, and that's just not much fun.

I think your goal of making the sightlines attractive and providing some definition is a better one to focus on. If you can get some fairway bunkering or shaping touch-ups into the budget, I'd go for it. But if your only option is planting trees wisely (and it sounds like it is), I'd do it as slowly as possible to see how the course plays without them and where they're really needed, and as I mentioned in the spin-off thread, focus on planting tall specimen hardwood trees rather than the chintzy evergreens and bradford pears and silver maples and other wooden weeds that dominate so many courses in our area of the country. Honestly, imprellis is probably a blessing in disguise. Short evergreens just don't belong on golf courses. They look silly and like something that should be in a landscaped lawn, and taking an unplayable or lost ball because you roll under one is miserable. But some tall hardwoods would look pretty nice out there I think.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2013, 02:05:24 AM »


We are losing roughly 130 trees due to a turf chemical our club used called Imprellis by Dupont

So where can I get some of this Imprellis.......

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2013, 09:02:57 AM »
You all make very solid points regarding the trees.  Hey, thats part of the reason I'm here right?  To learn more.  Definitely some thoughts I will take with me moving forward.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2013, 09:22:36 AM »
It's a good thing someone planted those trees next to the lake, it would be a shame to have to see the feature and it would be too easy to have to drop and not have to punch out from underneath them.



Were these trees behind the green poisoned? I hope so, because they shouldn't be there.

H.P.S.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2013, 10:28:30 AM »
Pat, while I can see where you're coming from, I also don't think either example you cited is an egregious issue. The trees next to the lake in the first photo are undeniably sparse and should be easy to play around. Do you think players are obligated to have a clear shot at a green after hitting into a lateral hazard? Personally, I think one tree near the hazard line is fine even if it makes a pitch out the prudent play for one out of every 100 players who hits into the hazard. It's certainly not overly penal.

The trees behind the green in the second photo may not serve much of a purpose, but they look nice enough, don't impede playing lines, and appear to be set far enough back to not affect turf. While you (and maybe I) might prefer the course without them, I suspect that members and public would probably prefer them by a margin of about 5:1 or so versus a clearer view of the lake, and that's ultimately the course's constituency.

I'd say complaints about trees at HCCC are much ado about nothing for now, but there is admittedly a slippery slope if planting were to continue and start getting closer to fairway and green turf or actually crowding out options for recovery (which is why they're looking for an architect to advise). I just don't think the course has started sliding down that slope yet, and having seen it in person, I think it would look very nondescript and lack definition and texture without its trees. While fairway bunkers and more artistic shaping would certainly be a better way to add that definition and texture, those things just aren't ever going to be in the budget.

This course is VERY different from the typical clubs who wish to remove and manage trees we discuss on this site, and I don't think the same boilerplate arguments for tree removal apply.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 11:06:34 AM »
Pat,

Am I missing something here?...

If you are taking out trees and then planning to plant new ones in certain spots, why not just leave a few trees already in those spots? You'll save money and any new ones you plant, won't have any significant impact for quite a while.  They'll need to mature.

One thing I've learned while working first hand on our tree management process at Tavistock...there was a lot of talk about selective planting of some new trees in certain areas after the bulk of our work was completed.  We are close to 10 yrs into our plan and we haven't planted ONE SINGLE new tree yet, and I plan on keeping it that way.

Do yourself a favor, take out all the trees you think are necessary, then take out even more, don't worry about replanting and you'll be all set.  :)

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 11:19:06 AM »
Pat,

Am I missing something here?...

If you are taking out trees and then planning to plant new ones in certain spots, why not just leave a few trees already in those spots? You'll save money and any new ones you plant, won't have any significant impact for quite a while.  They'll need to mature.

One thing I've learned while working first hand on our tree management process at Tavistock...there was a lot of talk about selective planting of some new trees in certain areas after the bulk of our work was completed.  We are close to 10 yrs into our plan and we haven't planted ONE SINGLE new tree yet, and I plan on keeping it that way.

Do yourself a favor, take out all the trees you think are necessary, then take out even more, don't worry about replanting and you'll be all set.  :)

You don't have to worry about me planting any trees anytime soon.
H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 11:32:27 AM »
Were these trees behind the green poisoned? I hope so, because they shouldn't be there.



Pat --

Speaking of views behind greens...

I'd love to hear about the discussion that preceded the erection of that new wall behind your 6th and 12th greens.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 12:10:16 PM »
This is something of a dilemma where sometimes we on GCA.com get into a bit of a semi-ethical or else uncomfortable position of having other participants start recommending architects and superintendent practices based on someone at a particular club/course inquiring on behalf of _______.  I think Jason has made the most important points, and it wasn't until he gave more information about which course, and a fleeting example of photos from the course that there was even a bit of context to Mr. Warren's inquiry.  

I would like to know if Mr. Warren is a member concerned about the direction of the board or ownership entity of that course.  While it is called McHenry "County", I get the impression it is not a municipal course.  But it is open to the public and as Jason indicates, is a budget driven operation.  

The stated 'conifer' problems of being poisoned probably isn't reflected in the photos.  Also, the presents of those damn willow trees as an ubiquitous messy species plaguing so many golf courses, indicates that there certainly is a need for a tree plan, including replacement of trees (if that is the aesthetic desired, or some other feature creation or re-arrangement that may be in order, depending on budget of course.  

But the slippery slope of us making recommendations beyond that gets dicey.  Kevin's gentle prod to do the research seems about right to me.  Hopefully that listed board of directors of the club listed on the club's website, are committed enough to do some of that research, including perhaps asking a valued and respected member to help beat the bushes for ideas.  But, past getting them started, I think we discussion participants should get too far down the road of making specific architect or landscaper recommendations - in open forum.  The info it out there for those who seek.  The ideas and debate on value of trees is a fine one in the generic sense, and totally related to our subject matter.  That seems the right aspect to discuss openly, but not specific architects for a specific job, IMHO.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 09:37:10 PM »
Pat,

Am I missing something here?...

If you are taking out trees and then planning to plant new ones in certain spots, why not just leave a few trees already in those spots? You'll save money and any new ones you plant, won't have any significant impact for quite a while.  They'll need to mature.

One thing I've learned while working first hand on our tree management process at Tavistock...there was a lot of talk about selective planting of some new trees in certain areas after the bulk of our work was completed.  We are close to 10 yrs into our plan and we haven't planted ONE SINGLE new tree yet, and I plan on keeping it that way.

Do yourself a favor, take out all the trees you think are necessary, then take out even more, don't worry about replanting and you'll be all set.  :)

You don't have to worry about me planting any trees anytime soon.

Oops. Sorry. I meant to address it to Adam.

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tree Plan-Architect recommendations
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2013, 07:32:19 PM »
Pat,

Am I missing something here?...

If you are taking out trees and then planning to plant new ones in certain spots, why not just leave a few trees already in those spots? You'll save money and any new ones you plant, won't have any significant impact for quite a while.  They'll need to mature.

One thing I've learned while working first hand on our tree management process at Tavistock...there was a lot of talk about selective planting of some new trees in certain areas after the bulk of our work was completed.  We are close to 10 yrs into our plan and we haven't planted ONE SINGLE new tree yet, and I plan on keeping it that way.

Do yourself a favor, take out all the trees you think are necessary, then take out even more, don't worry about replanting and you'll be all set.  :)

If one were to read the entire thread, they would know that we have trees that are dying due to a turf chemical produced by Dupont.  The trees MUST come out of the ground.  The trees referred to by Pat are not affected.  I am fairly certain they do not bear any resemblance to a pine tree....

For RJ, they have no updated the page regarding the board members.  I am a member, and am on the board.  We are a semi-private course with 300 memberships that is open to the public.  Most people have recommended people to me in PM with their own personal experiences or knowledge.  

I am interested to see the course without some of these trees, especially based on some of your comments.

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