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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
How about the 10th at PV
« on: September 28, 2013, 08:16:29 AM »
 ??? ??? ???

Jay Flemma's post got me thinking about the 10th at PV , and his questions about the Devil's Asshole or DA , a conical pit that guards the front right of the green. Landing in the DA pretty much guarantees the ruination of a round , but for the expert player it's only  marginally in play. Don't get me wrong it's in the back of your mind , but pretty deeply imbedded , nothing like the second shot on #8 .

I'm asking all you supers , particularly my good friend P Gert, if you think you could successfully tarp the DA in the event of a heavy rainstorm , much like they do the field at baseball games. My analysis says it would work , and would open up a world of possibilities for the front of that green , I'm sure many of you know where I'm going with this !  What say you lads??

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 08:32:19 AM »
Archie that thing would wash out aweful in heavy rains.  We did have to tarp it a few times but unfortunately it was often too late.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2013, 08:55:27 AM »
 ??? ???

Hey Rick , thanks for checking in .  I am cognizant of the maintenance issues, but given the size (small) of the DA and the ability of PVGC to afford a little extra $ than most , I'm thinking you could design a tarp system that could work specifically for the bunker in question .

I actually was working there when Dick Bator put the "eyebrow" on the DA .  Just thinking out LOUD ????

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2013, 09:18:10 AM »
Archie that might be a good idea if they could build that. I would love to see the eyebrow removed and cut back down to its original form.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 09:19:53 AM »
Didn't some of those really old pictures of PV show that there was no DA at all?

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 09:33:59 AM »
Steve,
Indeed the DA was not there in the original pictures. The question still remains if a human put it there,or God himself put it there in the form of heavy rain over time

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 10:05:17 AM »
 8) ;D

Just think of the possibilities with today's green speeds putting a pin front right with no eyebrow, now we are talking . Now you get scratch handicappers hitting it left to keep from sucking it back into the DA . This brings the nasty pits on that side into play , and believe me it's not pretty if you get in one of them . How about if you hit it a little long, on the green but long with a front right pin and the DA begging for action .....look out below. I'd guess scores would dramatically increase , particularly for the experts.  

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 10:05:44 AM »
Last time I played after a bad storm the DA was fine but a playing partner lost his ball in the bunker at the back of the 11th green, it must have had 12-18" of water.
Cave Nil Vino

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 06:51:42 PM »
Archie,

If you recall, at one time the green fed directly into the DA, then, around the time of the Walker Cup, a berm of sorts was introduced above the DA and the green shrunk away from the DA.

I don't think it's much of a factor in the play of the hole, more legend than direct influence.

Surface drainage into the DA has been somewhat ameliorated by the berm

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 08:42:11 PM »
 ::) 8) ::)

Pat , you went too fast . My whole point was that the maintenance issues ( washouts)  and subsequent changes to prevent same (eyebrow) neutered the DA to a great extent.  

When you can putt or suck it back into the aperture it's really much more terrifying !

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 09:03:16 PM »
::) 8) ::)

Pat , you went too fast . My whole point was that the maintenance issues ( washouts)  and subsequent changes to prevent same (eyebrow) neutered the DA to a great extent.  

When you can putt or suck it back into the aperture it's really much more terrifying !

Archie,

Especially when you see the ball rolling back down the green toward the DA, the same DA where you just left deep foot prints.

Playing backwards was a viable, if not the prudent play.

I don't like the buffer of rough and "eyebrow" berm, but, I understand it's need.


Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2013, 07:22:14 AM »
Archie

If I remember correctly I think we tried to cover it once, or at least debated it. The issue is not the water falling on it but the water flowing into it. There would be no way to seal the edges to have the water stay out of it. A baseball field is relatively flat so the water can run to the sides of the tarp and the edges shed the water away from the turf. On 10 the green still falls toward the DA and the berm diverts the water away from entering directly but it still can flow in around the steps side.

At some stage it was shouldered up with wood (I believe when Dick rebuilt it with the berm) so the greenside doesn't collapse in a big washout. Since it's so small it's not a big deal to throw the sand back up on the face, although the final depth can vary on how good a mood the crew are in when they get there ;D
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2013, 09:23:50 AM »
 :'( ???

Thanks Alan , I'm with you . Particularly before the eyebrow was put in by Dick Bator, vividly remember  the water literally flowing into the DA like a
funnel. Maybe some kind of temporary eyebrow , made of plastic , that you could literally plug in much like a rain diverter on a pitched roof might offer a solution . I guess just thinking of the way this would change  the strategy on the tee shot et al is making me crazy!

Obviously if you could find a way to re-introduce the possibility of putting or spinning it back into the DA we wouldn't be considering it one of the easier holes on the golf course for long.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 09:43:34 AM by archie_struthers »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 12:20:11 PM »
Archie,

The slope of the green contributes significantly to the problem, just like false fronts contribute to soft approaches.

Remember, this feature was artificially injected into that hillside, hence the washout problem is inherent in the topography.

It's a neat feature, but one that can be "high maintenance"

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2013, 12:41:33 PM »
 :-\ :'(

Yes , yes, yes seņor comprende the engineering . Probably have seen the 10th  played 4,000 times. Watched them put in the ties, much like deadman poles on a bulkhead .


But I'm going to take another trip and see one more time , I think you could engineer something to stop the flow around the bunker. You could store any equipment ( temporary diverter) nearby in the woods. There's plenty of space to hide it , and only the Jersey Devil would stumble on it in passing !  
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 12:32:11 PM by archie_struthers »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 12:49:01 PM »
Why not sand bags?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2013, 12:52:47 PM »
Archie,

You could, but it might entail building an elevated hump/wing in that section of the putting green, not unlike # 11, although not nearly as severe.

That would change the flavor of the front right portion of the putting surface, but it wouldn't be the first time a green underwent changes at PV, and it wouldn't have to be elevated that high.

Surface water would then be diverted to the front left and right flank of the green

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »
 :P :-X :o

No changes , save for removing eyebrow and restoring the fear of the DA ! 

It can be done , and I surmise will be at some time !

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2013, 06:34:55 PM »
:P :-X :o

No changes , save for removing eyebrow and restoring the fear of the DA ! 

It can be done , and I surmise will be at some time !

Archie,

If it is, and it's a restoration of the Pre-Walker Cup configuration, the answer might be at the bottom of the bunker, and below the soil, with a sophisticated drainage system, all around.

I liked it when the putting surface fed directly into the DA, with no buffer of rough or berm to intervene.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 07:27:05 PM »
Will one of you old guys explain to me what the washout was...what happened? Breaking up the lip? The face of sand? Or just flattening out the bottom?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 08:08:05 PM »
Jim,

The front right of the green sloped down toward the approach.

The DA  was directly below the putting surface and as a result surface water flowed naturally into the DA.
Both irrigation and rainfall caused the face of the bunker to erode and become a maintenance headache.

Years ago, an eyebrow like berm was created above the bunker to divert surface water away from the top of the bunker and reduce the washout problem.
In addition, the green was allowed to recede with a buffer of rough rather than putting surface being immediately above/adjacent to the DA, probably as an additional defensive measure.

As Archie stated, over cooked putts could often end up in the DA when the hole was cut near it.

In addition, tee shots with spin and balls hit out of the DA, with either spin or not enough momentum, would often roll back into the DA.

If you had just played a recovery from the DA, that was a horrifying consequence as the ball would inevitably roll back into your foot prints, making your next shot even more difficult.

Now, with the mini-berm and buffer of rough, it's pretty rare when a ball can roll off the green, through the buffer and over the berm and down into the DA.

It's not nearly as frightening as it used to be, because it's not as functional..

Always happy to contribute to your architectural education. ;D


Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2013, 07:29:07 AM »


But I'm going to take another trip and see one more time , I think you could engineer something to stop the flow into the bunker , and store it nearby in the woods. There's plenty of space to hide it , and only the Jersey Devil would stumble on it in passing !  

Getting water to flow uphill to the woods to the right might prove difficult ;D

I remember another washout in the bunker below and to the left of the DA. It always washed out, and thinking back, it was in inline from where the water was diverted from the green..... In really bad storms, it would wash the sand down the path also. When we 'renovated' the complex way back it was addressed and I don't think that has been an issue (or at least as much of an issue) since.  

It serves as a reminder that when it comes to drainage or architecture in general, the consequences of a change have to be considered as not to create a new problem - saying that, it would be nice if there was a way to divert the water away and have the green/collar funnel back into the pit.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2013, 08:46:44 AM »
 ;) ;D :-*

Hey Alan , just re-read my post and wasn't talking about water storage , lol , was talking about a tarping device or water diverter that could be stored close to the green for use in a big storm . Pat alluded to engineering some sort of mechanical catch basin , a definite possibility. Just thinking how that might work , given it would be pretty hard to hide any sort of drain or sluice gate of some sort permanently on the front of the green.

However , there is a way.

If there is one thing anyone who has built or worked on golf courses knows for sure , water finds its level.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 12:33:04 PM by archie_struthers »

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How about the 10th at PV
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 07:46:57 AM »
Archie

I figured it was written incorrectly, but couldn't resist:)
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

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