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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #325 on: October 18, 2013, 11:06:47 AM »
My favorite golf hole on either course is Red's 17th.  Despite it losing the round 10 - 8, I personally love being forced to hit a moonball drive over the hill.  Oddly enough it finally occurred to me that I hit my finest drives when I have the wind at my back or attempt to hit a high ball.  The 17th finally taught me to use that swing under all but the most obscene conditions.

One other reason I love the 17th the most is that it alone makes me want to walk the course.  The physical and visual stimulation of climbing the hill just off the tee is unmatched in my golfing experiences.  I've not made the famous walk at Cypress from 15 to 16 which I have heard described in relative terms.  At 53 years old I seldom experience the big reveal so common in youth and innocence.  And while I have only seen this once in perfect conditions with great friends, who wouldn't want to go hiking with Clayman and Kavanaugh, you can't make this stuff up.  It draws me back like nothing else on property.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #326 on: October 18, 2013, 11:14:26 AM »
Great thread John (and John), I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

You've certainly painted a picture that peaks anticipation should I ever make it out that way. 

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #327 on: October 18, 2013, 11:32:14 AM »
John & John,

Many thanks to both of you for putting in the time and effort to produce this Not Ready For Prime Time event. The unusual combination of knockdowns, technical analysis and comedic sensibilities made for interesting i-fodder. 3 weeks of it may've been a bit much I'm sure you both would agree.

Everyone else who has contributed - thank you. When's the home and home match? I'm talking real golf. :)





Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #328 on: October 18, 2013, 11:39:00 AM »
I think the two 18s might be the toughest matchup on the card. They are both very excellent finishing holes and are great match play finishers. 18 at Dismal red is a really great hole that finishes in a fantastic spot. Some people might be turned off by the fact that it doesn't fiish where it started, but who cares? That would be important if this was a local course where people are looking to play 18 and head, home, but Dismal is not that place. The setting with the clubhouse out in the distance and up the hill is just fantastic! The hole is a great hole tee to green and there is not much to find fault with, EXCEPT the fescue "pods" as JK called them that inhabit the mounds on the right side of the fairway. They are true head scratchers. Without them there the ball rolls to the right edge of the fairway and the golfer has a difficult shot at a difficult angle. The way they are now, they are almost a full stroke penalty due to the thickness of the growth. I love everything about this holes, except for those.

18 at Ballyneal is one of my favorite tee shots on the course. Plenty of room right, but the way the tee boxes are angled straight at the flag, I have seen many balls hit further left than the golfer should have been challenging. Left isn't dead, as long as you have the distance to carry. I love the little trick that was used on this tee. But right is the way to go, aim at the lodge on top of the hill and watch your ball bound and roll left and closer to the pin. If the pin is right or behind the bunker, as John Kirk stated, then you want the ball as far up the hill as possible, so you have a good look at the pin. I love the collection area short and left of the greenside bunker. It is a place where many people end up and the best way to play the next shot is only limited by the golfers imagination. I have seen several shots not hit well only to have the ball return back to the golfers feet. My BIL hit 4 of those from that spot. Great hole and great finisher.

As you can tell I love both of these holes. I would be tempted to give this one to Dismal Red dispite my love for Ballyneal's 18th, however, the fescue pods in the fairway prevent me from giving Dismal the win and I would have to say that this hole is a dead push for me. 10-10.

Here is my recap of my scoring

1: Dismal Red 10-9
2: Push 10-10
3: Ballyneal 10-9
4: Dismal Red 10-9
5: Ballyneal 10-9
6: Dismal Red 10-8
7: Ballyneal 10-8
8: Ballyneal 10-9
9: Dismal Red 10-8
10: Ballyneal 10-9
11: Push 10-10
12: Ballyneal 10-8
13: Ballyneal 10-9
14: Dismal Red 10-9
15: Dismal Red 10-9
16: Push 10-10
17: Ballyneal 10-9
18: Push 10-10

Ballyneal wins by 2 on my card and in matchplay.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #329 on: October 18, 2013, 12:12:30 PM »
Stephan,

On closing day the fescue pods had been bikini waxed.  They were simply a victim of grow in overspray this year.  I have a strong feeling that in the years that follow they will be perfectly recoverable and not result in lost balls.  They will still be a hazard as your recovery will have to deal with the ridges before the green.  A pod, ridge, river finish will be a daunting triple threat.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #330 on: October 18, 2013, 12:27:04 PM »
Stephan,

On closing day the fescue pods had been bikini waxed.  They were simply a victim of grow in overspray this year.  I have a strong feeling that in the years that follow they will be perfectly recoverable and not result in lost balls.  They will still be a hazard as your recovery will have to deal with the ridges before the green.  A pod, ridge, river finish will be a daunting triple threat.
John,

I am glad to hear that they are being thinned out. A big improvement, IMO.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #331 on: October 18, 2013, 12:34:15 PM »
Bally's 18th green is the one green there, that closely resembles the greens at DRR. Subtlety-wise.

Barney, Don't forget our other friends, especially the 30 mph winds.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #332 on: October 18, 2013, 12:48:49 PM »
Bally's 18th green is the one green there, that closely resembles the greens at DRR. Subtlety-wise.

Barney, Don't forget our other friends, especially the 30 mph winds.

If anything this thread displays the value in becoming a member of either course.  In a way it gets you off your ass and forces you to visit even when the forecast is most bleak.  I would not have ever made that trip if I were just a visitor and I would not have these very memories I will always cherish.  Few things are more fun or satisfying than traveling a long, long way and playing in conditions best reserved for the insane.

Joining is like buying a prepaid funeral, you can't help but use it even when staying warm underneath the covers seems like a better idea.  You can't go wrong with either course.

Now if I can just get this Ballyneal member to give up the belt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaKH0mNYdCA

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #333 on: October 18, 2013, 01:11:17 PM »
Up very early this morning.  I couldn't sleep; maybe I wanted to finish this.

....


Best post on the thread, thanks.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #334 on: October 18, 2013, 02:20:28 PM »
Up very early this morning.  I couldn't sleep; maybe I wanted to finish this.

....


Best post on the thread, thanks.

I agree.

Were I judging the judging I would have had you dominating throughout, and you finished with a flourish, with no obviously manipulated scoring, backhanded faint praise, manufactured drama or corny Hollywood endings.  Just a consistent and in-depth focus on the merits of the golf holes themselves. And great photos, too. Maybe a few too many "draw" rounds but other than than you judged a heck of a fight. Thanks for your efforts.

Kavenaugh, you were Alverez to Kirk's Mayweather, but thanks for your efforts as well.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #335 on: October 18, 2013, 02:30:17 PM »

Were I judging the judging


Please don't.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #336 on: October 18, 2013, 02:32:37 PM »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #337 on: October 18, 2013, 05:20:17 PM »
Thanks everybody.  I don't participate much the last three or four years, but JK and I have joined together for two good, in-depth threads where we match up two courses we like and know.

JK and I make pleasant sparring partners with differing approaches.  A couple of old basketball players.  One of us is more competitive than the other.  One of us was good at passing the ball to the guys who liked to score.

Adam, I'd also add the second green at Ballyneal as a good fit at Dismal River.  Dismal's greens have little tricky breaks in them.  Short putts were hard to read.  I think that has to do with hand raking the surfaces before seeding.

On most days, my favorite hole at Ballyneal is #18.  I only played Dismal River once, but on that day my favorite hole was probably #2.

Thanks to everybody who took the time to contribute.

John DAngelo

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #338 on: October 18, 2013, 06:08:38 PM »
Bally's 18th green is the one green there, that closely resembles the greens at DRR. Subtlety-wise.

Barney, Don't forget our other friends, especially the 30 mph winds.

I would not have ever made that trip if I were just a visitor and I would not have these very memories I will always cherish.  Few things are more fun or satisfying than traveling a long, long way and playing in conditions best reserved for the insane.


I guess I was a visitor desperate for a golf fix, happy to accept insane conditions, and glad to check out a new course with new friends.  What a great experience that turned out to be!  Thanks for the game, gents; it was a pleasure playing together.

Sorry if this observation is covered elsewhere in this thread (and me thusly committing a newbie foul), but after playing DRR and Ballyneal back-to-back, I really appreciated the member tee aspect of both courses.  Fantastic that neither course has, or appears to be concerned with having a slope / index.  I understand the reasons for this, but also found it liberating.  I walked away from the experience - and three rounds in ostensibly insane conditions - thinking this was as it should be, that the match decided how to play the course and the conditions determined the difficulty of the course.

And I think i'm starting to get feeling back into my fingers...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #339 on: October 18, 2013, 06:25:11 PM »
John,

Thanks for taking the time to join the site. Fingers?!?, I lost 30% of the vision out of my right eye. I should be fine by Thanksgiving.

John DAngelo

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #340 on: October 18, 2013, 06:35:28 PM »
John,

Thanks for taking the time to join the site. Fingers?!?, I lost 30% of the vision out of my right eye. I should be fine by Thanksgiving.

Pleasure to be here - somehow I made it through the vetting process.

Shaida and I went on to play Ballyneal on Monday, and after a slight frost delay were in shorts and golf shirt by 10 am.  Wouldn't have imagined that possible on Friday or Saturday!  Also tough to adjust to ONLY a slight breeze.  I completely airmailed - like by 30 yards - at least three greens.  All great fun.

With repsect to your right eye - I'm pulling for you / it.

All the best,

JD

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #341 on: October 18, 2013, 10:48:39 PM »
Big thanks also to Jimmy Muratt, who fed me photos of the Dismal River golf holes as well.   Thanks, Jimmy!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #342 on: October 18, 2013, 10:50:58 PM »
Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 12...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 13...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 14...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 15...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 16...Push
Hole 17...Push
Hole 18...Dismal Doak 10-8

For the round by round, I've got Dismal +2.
Point total I've got Dismal Doak at 162 and Ballyneal at 156.

Dismal Doak with the decision victory in the boxing match.

John, that was a lot of fun.  Good idea.

Two great courses.  Two worthy champions.

We should do this again...NGLA vs. Shinny; Old Course vs. Muirfield; Cypress vs. Pebble.  Whatever...this could be fun recurring theme.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 10:16:06 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #343 on: October 18, 2013, 11:25:44 PM »
John Kirk...

Excellent work on this thread.  Thank you for the time and effort!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #344 on: October 18, 2013, 11:32:19 PM »
The 18th hole at Ballyneal is a beautiful sweeping par 4.  It certainly benefits you to hug the trouble on the left side with your tee ball.  Tee shots that bail out right will go further right once they hit the ground and leave a long approach shot from a poor angle.  The green is relatively benign for Ballyneal's standard with regard to contour.  It's a very good finishing hole.

I think the 18th at Dismal will be recognized in time as one of the best finishing holes in golf.  It offers plenty of width off the tee, yet the aggressive line is rewarded with a much better angle and shorter shot.  Going into this green with a long club is no easy task as the green can be difficult to hold.  Missing right is obviously not good but there is room to bail out left if you need it.  It's a stunning golf hole.

I like Ballyneal's 18th but it can't match Dismal's....final round to Dismal..10-9.


Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10
11.  Dismal  10-9
12.  Ballyneal  10-9
13.  Dismal  10-9
14.  Dismal  10-9
15.  Dismal  10-8
16.  Push  10-10
17.  Ballyneal 10-9
18.  Dismal  10-9

My overall card has Dismal winning 3 holes up.  I think Ballyneal has the slight edge through the first 8 holes but Dismal Red goes to another level when you cross the road.  Two of my favorite courses anywhere....
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 11:34:44 PM by Jimmy Muratt »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #345 on: October 19, 2013, 12:31:53 AM »
Mac and Jimmy, thanks for participating!   I agonized over the choices, and watched in wonder at what I seemed to prefer in golf shots, surprised by the results.  The fact I stayed with a tie for #15, rather than give it to Dismal, proved to me that I was true to my convictions.

I take evaluating golf courses seriously, in a "having fun" sort of way.  I think we agree on what is important.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #346 on: October 19, 2013, 12:43:08 AM »
Jimmy, just curious where you rank Ballyneal among U.S. courses.  Top 20?  30?  Something different?  

Mac -- I think Dismal won by a lot more than 3 points on your card.  

John K: excellent thread, that gives me (who hasn't seen the courses) a much better idea of what they are like.  

I wonder how a fight like this between the two Dismal courses would turn out?  

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #347 on: October 19, 2013, 12:46:12 AM »
Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 12...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 13...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 14...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 15...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 16...Push
Hole 17...Push
Hole 18...Dismal Doak 10-8

For the round by round, I've got Dismal +2.
Point total I've got Dismal Doak at 152 and Ballyneal at 149.

Actually your scorecard has Dismal winning by a whopping 6 points.   A lopsided ass-whooping.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #348 on: October 19, 2013, 01:57:36 AM »
Congrats to Dismal River. Ballyneal had a nice run.

For the judges, how would you score DR Red vs Sand Hills, the defending world champ?


Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #349 on: October 19, 2013, 07:33:17 AM »
Awesome debate, thanks all. Looking forward to more in the series by any two gents who know any two Great courses equally well.

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