[Brent Hutto]

Is links turf something of an "equalizer" when it comes to different skill level players hitting iron shots? Or is it the opposite.

I've always heard it stated as a truism that "good players like tight lies" because they can control the ball better. So a natural implication of that line of thinking is that weaker players ought to dislike tight lie, right?

The lies we get at my usual home courses (inland South Carolina, Bermuda grass) are pretty tight compared to some of the course I've played further north in the USA. But having just returned from a trip to England playing mostly on links courses, naturally the lies there are far tighter. Especially this year.

But there's dry, hard and tight versus wet, soft and tight and maybe that's where the difference comes in. After just a few holes playing on good UK golf turf I felt like I was a much better ballstriker all of a sudden. Maybe not driver or wedges but with the 3-iron through 8-iron I don't think I've hit as many good shots ever in my life. And coming back home to play on Sunday at my usual home course I was back to scraping it around as per usual.

So does firmness of the turf make ballstriking enough easier to offset the putative difficulty of playing off tight lies? Or did I just enjoy the "holiday effect" of hitting some better shots because I was relaxed and enjoying the surroundings? Or maybe I'm just weird.

P.S. I will say that scoring-wise, the difficulty of getting the ball into a favorable position off the tee on many links courses more than offsets any ease to striking crisp iron shots. It's only easier to hit a 6-iron from the fairway, hitting 6-iron from knee-high fescue is something else entirely!

[Jim Sherma]

I fully agree that soft and tight is the worst for hitting irons off of. I'll take firm and tight any day. Links turf is the best.

[Steve Kline]

Firm and tight for me. I don't like scruffy fairways because my eye says the ball is sitting down and therefore it is harder to make clean contact.

[Steve Salmen]

If you hit into the ball at a relatively shallow angle, I think it's the same effect as hitting off a mat. Fat shots with not too short an iron will bounce or skid off the firm turf into the ball and produce a decent strike.

[John Percival]

Steve 'hit it' on the head...firm lies tend to make the leading edge slide along the surface and thru contact. Just like hitting off a sidewalk. Of course the impact area need be reasonably close to the ball, or the leading edge will bounce up and create a skulled shot.
Soft lies are like hitting out of sand. Any measure of heavy drives the leading edge down and into the ground, creating a fat shot and loss of distance.
Tight means the ball will have no grass between it and the clubhead and the lie will be consistent. THAT is what good players want - consistent. Less variables means greater opportunity to implement repeatable swing and create predictable shot/outcome. Wind, rough and uneven lies/greens help create the 'chaos' that the grooved player needs to be challenged.

[Scott Warren]

Brent,

When I played The Old Course in 2009, the 18hcp I played with and I both cut the corner nicely on the Road Hole.

Walking around the corner, we saw that one ball was in the first cut of rough and one was in the fairway.

I looked at him and joked, "please be mine in the fairway!". He responded that he hoped so too.

I asked why and he said he had been aiming for the light rough all day because it was far easier to hit iron shots from.

So yeah, I think better players prefer tighter turf and others might find longer fairway cut gives them greater room for error.

[Steve Kline]

So yeah, I think better players prefer tighter turf and others might find longer fairway cut gives them greater room for error.

Better players hit down on the ball while others try to hit up on the ball.

[Brent Hutto]

I think the discussion of angle of approach and what type of miss an individual tends to exhibit are probably right on. My good swings are a bit shallow and from the inside, my poor swings steep and OTT. So I guess for me links turf tends to be win, win. Good swings suit the tight lies and bad swings at least have a chance of not digging in as they would on softer ground.

But I play with at least a couple of guys at my club who have that "hit up on the ball" thing big-time. I don't recall these guys playing links courses but even on our course they love being in that first cut of rough for a de facto "teed up" lie that they can reverse-pivot and hit up on.

For all my copious swing flaws, about the only one I don't have is hitting up on the ball. So that probably colors my experience on links turf. I also use Ping G20 irons with wide soles that can skid into the ball (on firm lies) as long as I'm only hitting a tiny fraction behind it.

[Thomas Dai]

Steve 'hit it' on the head...firm lies tend to make the leading edge slide along the surface and thru contact. Just like hitting off a sidewalk. Of course the impact area need be reasonably close to the ball, or the leading edge will bounce up and create a skulled shot.
Soft lies are like hitting out of sand. Any measure of heavy drives the leading edge down and into the ground, creating a fat shot and loss of distance.
Tight means the ball will have no grass between it and the clubhead and the lie will be consistent. THAT is what good players want - consistent. Less variables means greater opportunity to implement repeatable swing and create predictable shot/outcome. Wind, rough and uneven lies/greens help create the 'chaos' that the grooved player needs to be challenged.

John,

How do you find your hickories play from soft/grassy and firm in comparison to modern irons? By 'modern' I mean recent blade/semi-blade style rather than big headed, wide sole, cavity backs.

All the best

[Charlie Gallagher]

The most rewarding contact in golf is a crisply struck iron on firm links turf, at least to me. There's something about ball ground contact on a really firm surface  and the resulting spin and control that just is far superior to contact on softer soils. When I mishit it on links ground, it makes me yearn for that crisp contact all the more. Watching a great player control spin and trajectory through the wind on links turf is marvelous to behold. I can do it once and awhile when I'm playing well, I have a couple of friends who can do it consistently and I enjoy watching them control their ball. It's inspiring.

[Rick Sides]

When I first started playing golf I use to love fluffy lies because I scooped the ball a lot.  Now that I have learned you have to hit down on the ball with a flat wrist, I prefer tight lies and don't like rough.

[Jeff Tang]

I too have experienced this. What's odd is that I'm an incurable flipper/caster/picker and yet when I've gone to Bandon on two trips and Scotland on one playing off of very firm turf I seem to adapt quickly and hit better iron shots than anywhere else. I don't know what it is because when I play off of tightly mown bent grass that you will find at nicer clubs in the North I don't experience the same kind of success.

[John Percival]

T,
The most difficult part of the hicks was tempering torque. On aggressive swings, the shafts really wanted to release, shutting the face and creating dive hooks. The fluffier the lie, the more prone to that looping 'topspin tennis forehand' swing. Thus, the tight lies seemed to aid in a more reserved swing approach and the firm turf seemed to minimize torque by grabbing the face just at impact (with the more forward leading edge) and keeping the torque to a minimum.
Was able to achieve a similar result on drives by teeing the ball very low. Same principle.

That is a useful trick when trying to work tee balls. It is hard to hook balls off tight lies. So, next time you need to avoid the left side, tee your ball low/lower to encourage cuts and the opposite for draws (which are more difficult, so be prudent with their use)

Have returned to Michigan, but not played with regular bats yet. In fact, hit a few hicks today at the range. The Hickory Stick Open at Great Oaks is this Monday, and don't want to confuse this old body.

But just dying to rip into that MT one iron! Next Tuesday. Early.

[Ken Moum]

I've always liked this one:

My experience of playing many of the classic links has been an enormous pleasure to me. The thrill of squeezing a ball against the turf, trying to keep it low into a buffeting wind, is something that lingers in the mind forever.  --Peter Thomson (Foreward to Classic Golf Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland)

[David_Tepper]

Anyone who plays a lot of links/firm turf golf should think about getting the loft & lie angles on their irons checked annually, especially if you are playing with forged clubs. Those angles can change a degree or two (or more) over time playing on firm turf.  

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for your hickory thoughts John. Most interesting.

I really like the quote that Ken highlighted from Peter Thomson - "My experience of playing many of the classic links has been an enormous pleasure to me. The thrill of squeezing a ball against the turf, trying to keep it low into a buffeting wind, is something that lingers in the mind forever." Lovely wording. Classic Golf Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland is a very fine book.

As to Peter Thomson himself. A true links master. Doesn't he spend time at Brora each (UK) summer? I think I'd pick him partnering with Tom Watson over any other post-WWII pair in 4BBB matchplay on a links anytime. They wouldn't be a bad combo on any kind of course for that matter. Great golfing brains.

Curious to know if any regular links players on here still carry/use a 1-iron? It used to be a standard club in the bag of single figure players on UK links courses. Or has everyone now gone over to low-lofted hybrids/rescues instead? A quail high 1-iron hit with a little draw into a strong, cold wind. That was a proper links golf shot.

All the best.

[William_G]

wedge shots are the most difficult as the bounce of your sand wedges don't allow for crisp contact with the ball, and chipping is much better with a 7 iron or just forego your irons and putt

[Josh Stevens]

The right irons help.

I spent a brief phase with large callaways when my game was going to shit, and while it helped on the crisp sand based couch fairways on my home club in Perth, it was a problem on links as they were just too large, the leading edge so blunt, and the sole so wide, that they bounced off.  It was hard to make a divot.

I went back to the blades and they just sliced into it nicely.  The Callaways are now permantnely in the shed, awaiting the day i get so old I have no choice but to use them again.

But yes, as someone said, links will bend your clubs over time, especialyl blades due to the weight of the head and the fixing method

[Brent Hutto]

I've played probably 40 or so rounds on links or firm heathland courses with Titleist DCI 990 irons and about a dozen rounds with wide-soled Callaway and Ping irons. I've got to say the percentage of crisply struck shots with the fat-bottomed irons were much higher but then again I hit those clubs more solidly at home on soft courses too. I've just never experienced any downside to using either style of clubs.

Now that said, if my short game were predicated on sliding a wedge under a ball and nipping it cleanly to hit the low spinner I'm sure thinner soles would be helpful. But that shot is not part of my game no matter what type of course I'm playing. For a stock, full swing iron shot in which my hands are ahead of ball at impact I can't really see any mechanism for the width of the sole to make a difference...

[Doug Siebert]

Curious to know if any regular links players on here still carry/use a 1-iron? It used to be a standard club in the bag of single figure players on UK links courses. Or has everyone now gone over to low-lofted hybrids/rescues instead? A quail high 1-iron hit with a little draw into a strong, cold wind. That was a proper links golf shot.

All the best.

I'm not a regular links player but I still carry a 1 iron.  I bought a 3 hybrid a couple years ago but I still hit the 1 iron much better.  The only place that the hybrid is a better alternative for me is out of the rough, which is obviously not where you want to be with any long iron, let alone a 1 iron.  My irons are old enough (1989) however that it is probably equivalent in loft to a modern 2 iron - not that those are all that common any longer either.

[Ken Moum]

Now that said, if my short game were predicated on sliding a wedge under a ball and nipping it cleanly to hit the low spinner I'm sure thinner soles would be helpful. But that shot is not part of my game no matter what type of course I'm playing.

My short game is almost entirely based on that shot, and it is the best part of my game by a wide margin.  I am currently carrying a 13 handicap, and my 2-handicap brother says my short game is about 10 shots better than my long game.

And I have always used wedges with a loft of bounce, and am completely convinced that there's virtually no need for narrow soles to hit those shots.  In fact, I believe that using low-bounce wedges makes the shots MUCH harder than doing it with higher bounce wedges.

My go-to wedges have been a variety of Pings for the last 20 years or so.  Currently using the 52 and 60 in the set below. i don't carry a sandwedge because the 60 is better for short bunker shots, and the 52 is perfect for longer ones.

[David_Tepper]

"And I have always used wedges with a loft of bounce, and am completely convinced that there's virtually no need for narrow soles to hit those shots.  In fact, I believe that using low-bounce wedges makes the shots MUCH harder than doing it with higher bounce wedges."

Ken M. -

It is interesting you say that. I know Stan Dodd has felt his wedge play at Dornoch has improved since he had the bounce on his wedge ground down.

There are a lot of ways to play this game!

DT

[Martin Toal]

And proper links turf ought to reward a good strike with the right sound too, a nice firm thud with a hollow bassy component. Sometimes if waiting for a shot with a club in your hand, it is nice just to tap the ground and get a taster.

[Brent Hutto]

And proper links turf ought to reward a good strike with the right sound too, a nice firm thud with a hollow bassy component. Sometimes if waiting for a shot with a club in your hand, it is nice just to tap the ground and get a taster.

My first exposure to links turf was in 2006 and that was one of the pleasures of spectating at the Amateur Championship, which was at Royal St. George's that year. One player after another hitting iron shots with that distinctive sound.

When conditions get really "keen" you can even occasionally hear a similar sound when the ball lands on a particularly firm spot on a baked-out fairway. Usually accompanied by a six-foot-high bounce of the ball.

There are several distinctive sound memories from playing golf in the UK that will pop into my head at random times. One is that sound of a club hitting firm links turf. Another is a stiff breeze blowing over waist-high fescue grass. And then there are Skylarks.

[Brent Hutto]

I don't know the technical details but my teaching-pro buddy says there are two totally different styles of chipping/pitching stroke. The finer distinctions are beyond my ken but one way of chipping deliberately engages the bounce of the club (even from tight lies) and the other depends on getting the leading edge under the ball before the bounce can come into play.

I'd imagine users of those two general types of chipping stroke might have distinctly different preferences for wedge design...

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