[Carl Johnson]

Question for Pat - Your round at PB - were the three of you (assuming you'd not bring in the single) playing a game - skins, 9's, wolf, or something else, or were you just playing the course?

Carl,

We weren't competing against one another, we were just having fun with each other and trying to play the best we could.

The one thing I noticed was that the 18th hole has become unsightly with all of the modern homes flanking the hole.
You don't seem to notice them as much on other holes because they're off to the side, whereas, when you play 18, you're almost aiming right at them from the tee

I ask because I am interested in the pace of play issue, which has never before been addressed on this site.    What you were doing at PB was what I could call "course touring."  No offense.  I do it too.  Yet for me, golf is about the competition.  When you're competing, and I am not talking about club championships, USGA championships, or pro tournaments, but rather the friendly very low dollar bet, my sense is that you (that means me) play a little slower than when just touring.  You may have folks on the course touring, and some competing, at the same time, and this is going to present "pace of play issues."  There are plenty of other POP issues, of course, but that's why I wondered if you were expecting to play a "game" in 2.5 hours.  So, question, Pat.  When you play a "friendly very low dollar bet" (if ever), does that slow down your play a bit, or not?

Carl,

While we didn't have any money on the line, we were definitely competing to play our best and shoot the lowest score.
I had a very good score going so I wasn't being cavalier and neither were the other fellows.
I took adequate time lining up an 8 foot birdie putt on # 8 and was deeply disappointed when I missed it.
Ditto my 15 foot birdie putt on # 10 and a 6 footer I missed at # 2 and a 12 footer at # 4 and # 6
On the first nine holes I had 7 birdie putts and tried to line up and make every one.
I also had a 10 footer at # 17 and misread it
The greens were slow and appeared to have been verti-cut and top dressed a while ago.
Ditto Spyglass.

Going from the lightening speeds of Tehema and MPCC to PB was an adjustment I didn't succeed in making, but I was genuinely trying to execute every shot with care.

I don't vary my pre-shot process for driving, irons, recovery and putting.
In fact friends make fun of my two practice stroke routine prior to putting.
And, because Fed-X, which promotes shipping your golf clubs, sent my clubs to Indianapolis instead of Monterey, I used a short putter for the entire trip.  I do NOT have a pre-putt routine for the long putter, I just aim and putt.

In every round at MPCC we averaged less than 3 hours, and, we never rushed or felt rushed.
And, we had fun, telling jokes, busting chops and raving about the golf course.

Hope that helps

Pat, it does.  Thanks for your thoughtful answer.

[Paul Stephenson]

Pat,

I'm sure the 4:30 on the range balls is a percentage call but I agree wholeheartedly with your premise.   Maybe "PLAY FAST" would work.  

However your premise that, " once the first group takes 4 1/2 hours, succeeding groups can never improve on that," is flawed.

If I tee off precisely 10 minutes after you, yet put the flag in the 18th hole only 7 minutes after you did, it doesn't matter if you played in 2:30 or 6:30, I beat you by 3 minutes.  

I hope you get a response from PB, the afternoon maintenance should be something they could look into.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

Since PB doesn't have returning nines and the 9th green is far removed from the clubhouse, the last tee off time of the day is probably challenged by the setting sun.

I'm sure that many golfers, teeing off late in the day, never complete their rounds and that tee off times are adjusted as the calendar approaches and retreats from June 21.

If the last tee off time is 3:00 and play deteriorates beyond 5:00 at this time of year the later groups will be playing in diminished light and darkness, especially if clouds or fog moves in.

So wouldn't it seem practical to perform maintenance after 3:00 pm when the course clears of play ?

To me it would seem prudent to groom bunkers and mow greens by essentially following the last group to tee off.

And, in conjunction with those practices, to encourage those teeing off early to play in 3:30.

Remember, most are playing in carts or with caddies or both
Our caddy told us that they've increased their caddy ranks dramatically and that they increased the number of maintenance personnel, but I don't know how accurate his information is.

That would enable them to reserve "speed slots" for the first hour.
More clubs are adopting "speed slots" for their younger members.

This would enable PB to accommodate more golfers, ergo more revenue, and it would provide a more pleasant golf experience for those playing The course.  Everyone wins.

Perhaps there are reasons why an emphasis can't be placed on afternoon maintenance, but I can't think of any off hand.

[Steve Burrows]

Perhaps there are reasons why an emphasis can't be placed on afternoon maintenance, but I can't think of any off hand.

How about because a typical maintenance employee starts their work day at sometime between 5:00-6:00 in the morning?  This would mean that a course that performs these afternoon maintenance practices would either be paying SIGNIFICANT overtime to their hourly staff, completely over working their salaried employees (who would regularly be working 12 hour shifts, or more), or they would have to hire new staff specifically for these later shifts. The costs of any of these, I would assume, far outweigh upsetting a few early bird golfers.

[jeffwarne]

Paul,

Since PB doesn't have returning nines and the 9th green is far removed from the clubhouse, the last tee off time of the day is probably challenged by the setting sun.

I'm sure that many golfers, teeing off late in the day, never complete their rounds and that tee off times are adjusted as the calendar approaches and retreats from June 21.

If the last tee off time is 3:00 and play deteriorates beyond 5:00 at this time of year the later groups will be playing in diminished light and darkness, especially if clouds or fog moves in.

So wouldn't it seem practical to perform maintenance after 3:00 pm when the course clears of play ?

To me it would seem prudent to groom bunkers and mow greens by essentially following the last group to tee off.

And, in conjunction with those practices, to encourage those teeing off early to play in 3:30.

Remember, most are playing in carts or with caddies or both
Our caddy told us that they've increased their caddy ranks dramatically and that they increased the number of maintenance personnel, but I don't knhoaccuratinformation is

That would enable them to reserve "speed slots" for the first hour.
More clubs are adopting "speed slots" for their younger members.

This would enable PB to accommodate more golfers, ergo more revenue, and it would provide a more pleasant golf experience for those playing The course.  Everyone wins.

Perhaps there are reasons why an emphasis can't be placed on afternoon maintenance, but I can't think of any off hand.

Pat, you're seriously suggesting they mow greens 16 hours before the next day's play tees off?
So greens that are historically slow and bumpy have an additional 67% of a day to.grow++ a fresh coat of  unremovedde w for am golfers, all because one group
Overscheduled themselves one day?
That would really go over well for those that pay $525

[Patrick_Mucci]

Perhaps there are reasons why an emphasis can't be placed on afternoon maintenance, but I can't think of any off hand.

How about because a typical maintenance employee starts their work day at sometime between 5:00-6:00 in the morning?  
I knew that some moron would make that statement.
The only reason a maintenance employee shows up at 5:00 is because that's when he's scheduled to work.

If instead of being scheduled to work from 5:00 to 1:00 some could be scheduled to work from 12:00 to 8:00, thus avoiding any overtime, and getting the afternoon work completed in orderly fashion
You have heard of "shifts" haven't you ?
Workers, including police officers operate in shifts all the time.


This would mean that a course that performs these afternoon maintenance practices would either be paying SIGNIFICANT overtime to their hourly staff, completely over working their salaried employees (who would regularly be working 12 hour shifts, or more), or they would have to hire new staff specifically for these later shifts.

Neither is true.
Some crew could work 5:00 to 1:00, others 12:00 to 8:00 with no overtime for anyone.

The costs of any of these, I would assume, far outweigh upsetting a few early bird golfers.

There would be no additional costs, and some workers would probably prefer the 12:00 to 8:00 shift

[Steve Burrows]

That would enable them to reserve "speed slots" for the first hour.
More clubs are adopting "speed slots" for their younger members.

Are you suggesting tighter spacing on tee times during the first hour of the day?  5 minutes?  8 minutes?  This would certainly get a few more groups on the course each day, and thus a substantial amount more money in Pebble Beach's pockets, but before people could book these times wouldn't they work have to sign some sort of declaration that they can play in less than three hours, for example?  I can certainly imagine some lying and/or abuse of that system in order to get such a preferred tee-time, and I can further imagine even greater log-jams to start the day when some group can't maintain the pace.  Or are you suggesting something else?

Ultimately, I think Pebble Beach has simply made a conscious decision that they are happy not only with daily cash flow, but also with the experience they hope to provide for people. This notion may never be reconciled with your apparent campaign to educate people about ready golf and speedy play, but, as you say, the tee sheet is full and people are lined up to play in spite of the potential for a 5-6 hour round.  In other words, it may not fit your vision, but it seems that the bulk of other paying customers enjoy their extended time out on the course, or at least keep their complaints to themselves.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you're seriously suggesting they mow greens 16 hours before the next day's play tees off?

I'm not very good at math so you'll have to explain how you calculate 16 hours

So greens that are historically slow and bumpy have an additional 67% of a day to.grow++ a fresh coat of  unremovedde w for am golfers, all because one group


So you're stating that with early morning maintenance that the greens are of an inferior quality, that they're slow and bumpy.

If that's the case, that's even more reason for dedicated maintenance in the afternoon

It was my understanding that grass grows better in sunlight and not in pitch black nights, hence I doubt that there's much discernible difference in the product at 6:00 the next morning, especially if you state that they're bumpy and slow on a consistent basis.

Overscheduled themselves one day?

How does creating separate shifts result in over scheduling ?
You guys would make lousy managers

That would really go over well for those that pay $525

Well, if people are paying $ 535 for slow and lumpy greens, I would think that they'd appreciate an improved product at the expense of dividing the crew into work shifts.

By the way, when did they cut fairways at the clubs you worked at ?

At 5:00 am or after 3:00 pm ?

Stop typing and Start thinking and you'll see the merits of creating shifts

[Steve Burrows]

Perhaps there are reasons why an emphasis can't be placed on afternoon maintenance, but I can't think of any off hand.

How about because a typical maintenance employee starts their work day at sometime between 5:00-6:00 in the morning?  
I knew that some moron would make that statement. Firstly, this schtick is so played.
The only reason a maintenance employee shows up at 5:00 is because that's when he's scheduled to work.

If instead of being scheduled to work from 5:00 to 1:00 some could be scheduled to work from 12:00 to 8:00, thus avoiding any overtime, and getting the afternoon work completed in orderly fashion
You have heard of "shifts" haven't you ?
Workers, including police officers operate in shifts all the time.

 Wouldn't you think that if it was this easy that more courses would do it?  Yet this is far from common.  In fact, in my ten years in the maintenance industry at high-end and middle tier private clubs I can't think of one place that resorted to this on a regular basis.  There were certain times when I worked at Riviera whereby an individual (sometimes myself) would come in at night, perhaps from 8:00-2:00, to oversee the "flushing" of greens, but the notion of regular employees at a golf course working in shifts just isn't the norm.  Again, you bring up the idea of shifts so casually, but I suspect the fact that almost NO ONE does this would suggest that there are too many downsides to such a practice.  As Greens Chair extraordinaire, have you ever convinced your superintendent to convert his/her maintenance practices and employee scheduling to shift (as you have described?

This would mean that a course that performs these afternoon maintenance practices would either be paying SIGNIFICANT overtime to their hourly staff, completely over working their salaried employees (who would regularly be working 12 hour shifts, or more), or they would have to hire new staff specifically for these later shifts.

Neither is true.
Some crew could work 5:00 to 1:00, others 12:00 to 8:00 with no overtime for anyone.

The costs of any of these, I would assume, far outweigh upsetting a few early bird golfers.

There would be no additional costs, and some workers would probably prefer the 12:00 to 8:00 shift

[Patrick_Mucci]

That would enable them to reserve "speed slots" for the first hour.
More clubs are adopting "speed slots" for their younger members.

Are you suggesting tighter spacing on tee times during the first hour of the day?  5 minutes?  8 minutes?  



NO..... Only a moron would draw that inference

This would certainly get a few more groups on the course each day, and thus a substantial amount more money in Pebble Beach's pockets, but before people could book these times wouldn't they work have to sign some sort of declaration that they can play in less than three hours, for example?

I wouldn't know, it's your suggestion, NOT MINE

I can certainly imagine some lying and/or abuse of that system in order to get such a preferred tee-time, and I can further imagine even greater log-jams to start the day when some group can't maintain the pace.  Or are you suggesting something else?

Something lse

Ultimately, I think Pebble Beach has simply made a conscious decision that they are happy not only with daily cash flow, but also with the experience they hope to provide for people.

That's absolutely untrue.
If they were happy with the current situation they wouldn't have three separate control points lecture the golfer on the pace of play.
And, they wouldn't have an abundance of Marshall's trying to speed up play

This notion may never be reconciled with your apparent campaign to educate people about ready golf and speedy play, but, as you say, the tee sheet is full and people are lined up to play in spite of the potential for a 5-6 hour round.  In other words, it may not fit your vision, but it seems that the bulk of other paying customers enjoy their extended time out on the course, or at least keep their complaints to themselves.

You forgot another obvious vision, the rejection of repeat play.

I know more than a few golfers who state that they won't return due to the absurd time it takes to play a round.
Others were furious that they paid a exorbitant green and couldn't complete their round.

What you and others don't seem to grasp is that without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.

And, what's even more incredible is that you and others don't seem to object to the promoting of slow play.

That's the issue.

If the first group plays in 4:30 or 5:00, no other group can play faster.
Thus slow play out of the gate ruins it for everyone else.

You'd have to be a moron not to understand that.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

[/size][/color]
 Wouldn't you think that if it was this easy that more courses would do it?  Yet this is far from common.

Not true.

Most courses do employ different work hours for employees with different tasks

 In fact, in my ten years in the maintenance industry at high-end and middle tier private clubs I can't think of one place that resorted to this on a regular basis.  

Baloney
When did they mow fairways and rough ?
In the early morning or late afternoon ?

There were certain times when I worked at Riviera whereby an individual (sometimes myself) would come in at night, perhaps from 8:00-2:00, to oversee the "flushing" of greens, but the notion of regular employees at a golf course working in shifts just isn't the norm.  

Again, you bring up the idea of shifts so casually, but I suspect the fact that almost NO ONE does this would suggest that there are too many downsides to such a practice.

When do most clubs cut fairways and rough ?

At 5:00 in the morning or later in the afternoon ?

You know the answer is in the afternoon, but disingenuously ignore that fact.

WHY ?

[Steve Burrows]

That would enable them to reserve "speed slots" for the first hour.
More clubs are adopting "speed slots" for their younger members.

Are you suggesting tighter spacing on tee times during the first hour of the day?  5 minutes?  8 minutes?  



NO..... Only a moron would draw that inference

This would certainly get a few more groups on the course each day, and thus a substantial amount more money in Pebble Beach's pockets, but before people could book these times wouldn't they work have to sign some sort of declaration that they can play in less than three hours, for example?

I wouldn't know, it's your suggestion, NOT MINE

I can certainly imagine some lying and/or abuse of that system in order to get such a preferred tee-time, and I can further imagine even greater log-jams to start the day when some group can't maintain the pace.  Or are you suggesting something else?

Something lse Then what??? If it's such a wonderful idea, please don't keep it to yourself.  The world is waiting.

Ultimately, I think Pebble Beach has simply made a conscious decision that they are happy not only with daily cash flow, but also with the experience they hope to provide for people.

That's absolutely untrue.
If they were happy with the current situation they wouldn't have three separate control points lecture the golfer on the pace of play.
And, they wouldn't have an abundance of Marshall's trying to speed up playBut they were not trying to speed up play in your case.  They were trying to slow you down.  This was due in part to the maintenance crews, as you have stated, but I would guess it was also in order that they could provide you with the 41/2 hour experience that they want to give all of their customers.

This notion may never be reconciled with your apparent campaign to educate people about ready golf and speedy play, but, as you say, the tee sheet is full and people are lined up to play in spite of the potential for a 5-6 hour round.  In other words, it may not fit your vision, but it seems that the bulk of other paying customers enjoy their extended time out on the course, or at least keep their complaints to themselves.

You forgot another obvious vision, the rejection of repeat play.

I know more than a few golfers who state that they won't return due to the absurd time it takes to play a round.
Others were furious that they paid a exorbitant green and couldn't complete their round.

What you and others don't seem to grasp is that without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.

And, what's even more incredible is that you and others don't seem to object to the promoting of slow play.

That's the issue.

If the first group plays in 4:30 or 5:00, no other group can play faster.
Thus slow play out of the gate ruins it for everyone else.

You'd have to be a moron not to understand that.  

[Steve Burrows]

[/size][/color]
 Wouldn't you think that if it was this easy that more courses would do it?  Yet this is far from common.

Not true.

Most courses do employ different work hours for employees with different tasks

 In fact, in my ten years in the maintenance industry at high-end and middle tier private clubs I can't think of one place that resorted to this on a regular basis.  

Baloney
When did they mow fairways and rough ?
In the early morning or late afternoon ?

There were certain times when I worked at Riviera whereby an individual (sometimes myself) would come in at night, perhaps from 8:00-2:00, to oversee the "flushing" of greens, but the notion of regular employees at a golf course working in shifts just isn't the norm.  

Again, you bring up the idea of shifts so casually, but I suspect the fact that almost NO ONE does this would suggest that there are too many downsides to such a practice.

When do most clubs cut fairways and rough ?
MOST clubs, huh? Which ones?  You have not cited even one, yet I am expected to believe that MOST clubs (which i assmune means a simple majority, and thus, thousands of clubs) participate in a maintenance practice that NONE of the clubs where I worked did on a regular basis?

From my experiences:
Woodland Country Club in Carmel, Indiana;
The Hawthornes Golf and Country Club in Fishers, Indiana;
Scioto Country Club in Columbus, Ohio;
Riviera Country Club in Pacific Palisades, California.  

Each of these clubs where I worked mowed fairways in the morning as part of the crew's first jobs. Rough mowing would either begin as a second job (as early as 9:00 in the morning even with dew still on the ground) or around lunch; it wasn't an entirely predicable thing.  Afternoon and/or evening mowing of fairways was generally reserved for occasions such as the Member-Guest, or other instances when expectation of course presentation made time a critical factor in the morning.

At 5:00 in the morning or later in the afternoon ?

You know the answer is in the afternoon, but disingenuously ignore that fact.I have provided you with my personal experiences; this is hardly disingenuous.

WHY ?

[Greg Chambers]

Patrick,

Please cite five examples of clubs that start mowing their fairways at three o'clock in the afternoon.

Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Please cite five examples of clubs that start mowing their fairways at three o'clock in the afternoon.

Greg,

Okay, but you have to remember that PBGC doesn't have returning nines as most clubs do, so they can start earlier because tee off times cease at 3:00, due to the length of rounds, the time to play and sunset/darkness

But, yesterday, Sunday, Preakness Hills began cutting fairways and roughs at 2:00.

They usually cut in the afternoon as does Mountain Ridge, Montclair, Upper Montclair and  Essex County.

GCGC, NGLA and others also cut fairways and roughs in the afternoon.

And I'm fairly certain that Pebble Beach does as well.

With the first tee time at 6:40, and sunrise at 6:38 and dawn at 6:12, it's dark at 5:00, 5:30 and 6:00.
With those incredibly steep cliffs, I can't see anyone allowing, let alone mandating that mowers to cut the fairways and roughs in the dark, can you ?
Especially since two golfers were killed when their cart went off one of those cliffs.
With that precedent, the legal and financial liability created by the Pebble Beach Company, for mandating the cutting of fairways and roughs in the dark, would be beyond enormous, and it would be incredibly reckless.

So what do you think ?

Does PBGC cut their fairways and roughs in the dark, especially when it's foggy, which it frequently is ?

What do you think Greg ?
Thanks.

[Thomas Dai]

I believe that Valderrama in Spain at one time installed lights in the trees so some aspects of maintenance work could be undertaken in the dark when the players are not around. Not sure if this practice is still adopted there. Some might even be cynical enough to suggest that maintenance crews are generally already kept in the dark (sic).
All the best

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that Valderrama in Spain at one time installed lights in the trees so some aspects of maintenance work could be undertaken in the dark when the players are not around. Not sure if this practice is still adopted there. Some might even be cynical enough to suggest that maintenance crews are generally already kept in the dark (sic).
All the best

Thomas,

Some of the equipment at ANGC have two sets of lights, one set above the cab and another set down low near the tires, and they do work when it's dark out, but they don't have high, steep cliffs with a history of people dying by plunging over them in riding vehicles

[Thomas Dai]

I'd be interested to know what the Supers/Head Greenkeepers/Curators etc herein think of the practice of staff undertaking course maintenance working at night?
All the best.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd be interested to know what the Supers/Head Greenkeepers/Curators etc herein think of the practice of staff undertaking course maintenance working at night?

Thomas,

Overtime, tangential costs and its affect on budgets is one reason.

Another is the restrictions imposed by local "disturbing the peace" ordinances.

On weekends we have to mow/maintain certain holes after specified hours due to complaints from adjacent homeowners.

I believe that Jim Kennedy indicated that there were firms now making quieter electric mowers and blowers, but, I haven't seen any great increase in their use.

[Greg Tallman]

I am all for the split shifts concept. Obviously the biggest issue is having proper mangement/supervision around for the entire day which, in your scenario would be no shorter than 13 hours and as long as 16 during some times. Quite easy on paper, not so much in practice.

You say promote 3:30. Okay, let's start tomorrow. You're in the first group. Congratulations, your group ends up being the ONLY group happy on the day but what if you had teed off at 10:30, expecting/hoping for a 3 hour 30 minute round, after all that is what they were pushing? You play in 4 hours, a tremndouos "improvement" on their normal pace but you are livid and it's "pro shop here I come..."

That said the first group should be able to play in 2:30 to 2:45 without encountering a problem.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am all for the split shifts concept. Obviously the biggest issue is having proper mangement/supervision around for the entire day which, in your scenario would be no shorter than 13 hours and as long as 16 during some times. Quite easy on paper, not so much in practice.

Agreed, plus local ordinances, overtime, etc., etc.. must be considered.

You say promote 3:30. Okay, let's start tomorrow.

You're in the first group. Congratulations, your group ends up being the ONLY group happy on the day but what if you had teed off at 10:30, expecting/hoping for a 3 hour 30 minute round, after all that is what they were pushing? You play in 4 hours, a tremndouos "improvement" on their normal pace but you are livid and it's "pro shop here I come..."

First off, no one was livid and no one expected compensation, either in the form of a rebate or pro shop credit.
But, if you don't ask, you're not going to get.

I think there's a practical solution.

A rebate on green fees if you meet your targeted time.

If Green Fees were $ 575, but,  you got $ 75 back if you played in your alloted time, that would encourage fast play and everybody would be happy.

That said the first group should be able to play in 2:30 to 2:45 without encountering a problem.

If you knew that you were going to get $ 75 back in cash, or a $ 100 credit in the Pro Shop, you'd be anxious to meet your timed target, and, the people in your group would all be geared toward getting everyone to play at a good pace such that everyone in the group would get their $ 75 cash or $ 100 Pro shop credit.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Getting groups to play faster will allow more groups to play the course, generating more revenue.
Getting groups to play at a good pace will enhance everyone's enjoyment.

Everyone wins  

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

a history of people dying by plunging over them in riding vehicles

Wasn't this anecdote proven to be an urban myth the last time you wheeled it out?

[Joe Sponcia]

That was a great read!  Thanks for posting.

[Paul Jones]

Pat,

I liked the idea of promoting fast play by giving a credit to the Pro Shop (or maybe the bar).  That would make all public courses more enjoyable.  Now, how can we do something similar at a Private club?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I liked the idea of promoting fast play by giving a credit to the Pro Shop (or maybe the bar).  That would make all public courses more enjoyable. 

 Now, how can we do something similar at a Private club?

Paul,

We developed a VERY effective system for improving pace of play at a private club.

From 4:40 down to 3:50 within a month.

I just sent it to several participants who requested it.

I'll send it to  you.

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