[Mark Smolens]

"I don't know of any courses in my area where the marshalls monitor the pace of play. The marshalls just drive around. Most courses don't even have marshalls because course operators believe, if you pay, you can play as slow as you want."

Just how are they supposed to look for balls in the bushes and hazards if they're expected to monitor the pace of play???

[Mark Woodger]

I like to play quickly but not at the expense of enjoying the experience of enjoying the game, the course and the company. By all means whip round your local course in 2hrs 30 to get back in time for sunday dinner but but to race around a place like pebble beach or the ocean course  at kiawah or any other of the beautiful courses in the world seems like a waste of money to me. I am not suggesting you take 5 hours but 4 is a reasonable pace for 4 golfers.

To ask for a refund is insulting in the extreme. you played 18 holes which is exactly what you paid for. is this story made up? i can't imagine anybopdy to be so brazen.

Peoples slow play isn't really the issue in golf its peoples lack of consideration, thought, awarness of how their slow play impacts others and as such their refusal to let the faster groups through. This culture needs to be changed! If a slower group let others through then it would go some way to helping the issue and if players are so slow as to always be letting people through they will either a) play quicker or b) not play at all until they are quicker.

Until the culture of letting people through is changed  the interim step is course marshalls doing their job and forcing groups to wait and let other players through.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Quick question - let's say the crew was on the 4 holes ahead of the first group and you run into them.  You put them at risk because your ball could strike them.  You also slow their work, so the following groups could possibly run into them.

To be blunt, I think the risk you posed to those workers outweighed your need to play in 2.5 hours.

Dan,

To be blunt, you'd have to be a moron to adopt that position.



With the rarity of a total eclipse I for once find myself agreeing with you 100%

Your position may just be slightly contradictory to your recently stating that petty delays were, well, just that, but I can happily let that slide and enjoy the rarity of the moment for now.  

So, to be clear, if by some small miracle you had been followed by a couple of equally quick groups, we can take it that Pebble would have actively encouraged the outbreak of total gridlock. Incredible.

And, speaking as someone with half a foot in the door, the guy in the Pro Shop is perhaps not the best point of contact in such situations. Good at following dictated formulae, not so good at big picture thinking. If you actually want to make a point, a strong letter to management might be more productive.

The draft is already in progress

[John Kavanaugh]

I like to play quickly but not at the expense of enjoying the experience of enjoying the game, the course and the company. By all means whip round your local course in 2hrs 30 to get back in time for sunday dinner but but to race around a place like pebble beach or the ocean course  at kiawah or any other of the beautiful courses in the world seems like a waste of money to me. I am not suggesting you take 5 hours but 4 is a reasonable pace for 4 golfers.

To ask for a refund is insulting in the extreme. you played 18 holes which is exactly what you paid for. is this story made up? i can't imagine anybopdy to be so brazen.

Peoples slow play isn't really the issue in golf its peoples lack of consideration, thought, awarness of how their slow play impacts others and as such their refusal to let the faster groups through. This culture needs to be changed! If a slower group let others through then it would go some way to helping the issue and if players are so slow as to always be letting people through they will either a) play quicker or b) not play at all until they are quicker.

Until the culture of letting people through is changed  the interim step is course marshalls doing their job and forcing groups to wait and let other players through.

Mark,

Wrong thread.  This is a case of players playing to fast.  The culture of impatience that invades every aspect of society is the foundation of slow play problems.  For every 8 slow players there are 2 overly fast players.  Each is equally inconsiderate and selfish.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let me make a statement that even morons should be able to comprehend.

In an environment where ten minute tee times are sold out, if the first group out plays in 4:30, no following group can play in less than 4:30, which, as night follows day, means that pace of play will deteriorate with those that follow the first group.

What's also obvious, although not to the many morons on this site, is that many clubs start play at 6:30 or 7:00 and the golfers that are first off the tee never encounter maintenance personnel because the Superintendent is adept at properly delegating and scheduling his staff and their tasks because he has to prepare the course for those who play it, who also employ him.

The disconnect at Pebble Beach and all resort/hotel courses is that those playing the course have NO direct influence over the Superintendent's employment, and employment practices.  In other words, the Superintendent is NOT accountable to those who play the course.

Today, younger golfers want to tee off early and play quickly, as they want to get back to their young families.
Can you imagine the uproar if those teeing off first were told that they had to play in no less than 4:30, or that they would be stopped from playing, mid round, so that maintenance could complete it's chores.

This seems to be a case of the tail wagging the dog, despite the fact that the dog is paying $ 500+ per round.
Or, put another way, a total disregard for the customer because they have an over supply of customers.

And, it's certainly counter to the "While we're young" campaign

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you checked the Unaccompanied rate at Shinnecock, NGLA, or Sebonack lately?

I have, and they're not nearly as high as Pebble Beach, and, I get to play a course that's in great condition.

Pebble Beach, which restricts carts to the cart paths, was not in good shape, which I didn't understand.

I can understand the small greens not being in great shape, despite a great micro-climate, but, the fairways should have been in great shape, and they weren't.

For $ 500+ most golfers have a reasonable expectation of being presented with a quality product.

If it's views you want, you can pay $ 9.75 and take the 17 mile drive and go down to and on the beach.

I think Pebble Beach is a GREAT golf course, but, promoting the first group to play in 4:30 only leads to extended times of play as the day progresses.

They're doing something wrong, but, it's obviously not evident to them because they have an endless supply of golfers willing to pay $ 500+ and put up with questionable conditions and slow play.


[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

So how many pictures did you guys take? 

45 minutes worth

[Patrick_Mucci]

i would bet if they did let guys play through the grounds crew, they would hear them in the shop afterwards asking for a refund because they played bunkers that weren't properly raked or greens that weren't cut  -- thereby not being worthy of the 5 bills fare!!!

Mark,

Did it ever dawn on you that they could rake/groom the bunkers when the last group tees off on the previous afternoon ?

Isn't that when they also cut the fairways and rough ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

He's unsympathetic, and do you know why ?

Because you were asking for your money back after playing eighteen holes.

Obviously, an typically, because you're a moron, you seem to forget the original discussion with PB when the tee time was made.

[Tim Gavrich]

Let me make a statement that even morons should be able to comprehend.

Today, younger golfers want to tee off early and play quickly, as they want to get back to their young families.
Can you imagine the uproar if those teeing off first were told that they had to play in no less than 4:30, or that they would be stopped from playing, mid round, so that maintenance could complete it's chores.

Pat--

Can you please name five courses where this policy is in place--where the first group is not allowed to play in less than 4:30?

It seems to me that at Pebble Beach, you were permitted to play in no less than 3:20, rather than no less than 4:30. That's a difference of 70 minutes.

You've also provided your own answer to your stated frustrations in your observations about the customer-operator dynamic at Pebble Beach. Repeat play is nearly nil, and their tee sheets are full to the brim as it is, so they seem to have found a way to maximize revenue from tee times. If they could make more money by encouraging a faster pace of play, as you have suggested, I imagine they would. Perhaps they've tried to encourage a four hour pace of play in the past, only to discover that their one-of-a-kind setting and the nature of that experience (most people are not inclined to rush through it) makes it effectively impossible to maintain such a pace of play. Pebble Beach is a golf course plus a scenic American landmark--most people aren't going to want their day out there to end.

I imagine that Pebble Beach will never function like a private club in the ways you would like it to. It has an altogether different model. And while there is no doubt your letter to their management will make many good points and have some helpful suggestions as to how they might run at a higher profit, I am left to wonder whether they will receive it as well as you would intend.

Moronically yours,

--Tim

ASIDE: I'd love to see a breakdown hole-by-hole of pace of play at Pebble. My guess is that the oceanside holes take longer to play than the more inland ones.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I fail to understand how one can appreciate the strategies of a round if your sole goal is to play as fast as possible.


It's unbelievable.
Another moronic response.

Only a MORON would state that our sole goal was to play as fast as possible.

Our goal was to play the BEST golf we were capable of playing.
The fact that we play at a brisk pace is another matter.

As to "appreciating the strategies" let's just say that I'm a fast learner.
That my interpretations of the visual architectural signals sent to my eye are quickly analyzed with a decision/strategy quickly following.
It doesn't take me more than a second or two to figure out how and where I want to drive the ball.
And, it doesn't take me that long to figure out where the green is and which side or shape shot I want to favor.
Now, it may take you and others 10 minutes to figure those things out, so I guess that's why they set such a low pace of play standard.

I'm not promoting slow play but PB is not a crush it and wedge it course and even if it was, some time should be taken to appreciate the magnificent setting.

The setting at Pebble Beach is spectacular, as it is on the entire Monterey Peninsula, but, are you just going to stand their looking at a gorgeous naked woman, or are you going to physically enjoy her ?  

Pat, I hope you and your group were able to at least admire the beauty.

Mike, you CAN DO BOTH.
How long does it take to figure out how far you are and to then hit your shot ?
Then, in between shots, as you approach your ball or the next tee, you can enjoy your surroundings to your hearts content.
The setting is spectacular.
As RLS stated, the most magnificent blend of land and sea anywhere in the world.
The colors of the ocean, the mountains, the golf course, the fog rolling in and out.
It's magnificent, but, I'm not there to dawdle and sightsee, I'm there to play golf.

Maybe it's old hat for you but as I'm sure you know, you are not the typical golfer playing that course.

That's true and I understand that, and that's just one of the reasons why we requested the first tee time.

I usually engage the caddies to get a "truer" perspective as to what's going on, and our caddy was pretty candid and enjoyed his round with us.

There are clubs that have but one rule, do whatever you like, but just don't infringe on the other members enjoyment.

What's comical about some of the reactions, is the defense of slow play.

Once you set your opening round at 4:30 it can only go downhill from there.

I know people who refuse to play Pebble Beach because they don't want to spend five to six plus hours waiting around while they play golf.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

While I sympathize with your plight and agree with virtually all of your suggestions, I'm afraid you're tilting at windmills in this case.  Pebble is more than just a really good golf course with great scenery and tournament bonafides;  it's one of the premier tourist attractions in this country.  As such, you either buy your ticket and enjoy the ride or choose to spend your tourist dollars elsewhere.  It's akin to going to a Cubs game at Wrigley Field and complaining about all the fans juggling two beers, a smartphone camera and a bison dog who couldn't tell you who Fergie Jenkins was.

[Michael Moore]

you seem to forget the original discussion with PB when the tee time was made.

First, I would ask that you refrain from calling me a moron or any other such name.

Second, when you go to a restaurant and your meal is not right, you either send it back or you eat it and tell the waiter that it's fine. At the very worst, if you are a passive-aggressive control freak you might say "tell the kitchen this is too salty but I'll eat it anyway". But you don't eat it and then ask for a refund.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg, your response has to be one of the all time most moronic responses on GCA.com.

See my comments below.

Regarding the early morning maintenance and John's tongue in cheek "how dare they..." comment.

Where do you think the maintenance staff from Pebble comes from?

What do you think the average commute is? I know when I hired their top assistant his commute was more than an hour each way I believe and the maintenance guys may face longer travel times.

So, when doctors/patients schedule their surgeries for 6:00/6:30/7:00 they should give due consideration for where all of the hospital staff is commuting from ?  ?  ?

Instead of scheduling the first surgery of the day, they should schedule the last, when everyone, except the patient, wants to go home.
Great thinking.
That's what I want when I have surgery, the last Operating Room time of the day, when the surgeon, anesthesiologist, nurses, attendings and assistants are tired as hell after a long, tedious day.

How about the patient who travels 3,000 miles to that hospital and is paying an exhorbitant fee ?

How do you think their staff retention would be if they set schedules to passify the miniscule number of folks who would wish/expect to play in 2 hours 30 minutes teeing off at 6:40?

This is called.......... moronic.
I guarantee you that many on this site could figure out a schedule that would accomodate proper conditioning, fast play and worker satisfaction.
But, that only happens if you truely care about your customer and your customer's experience.
Is a golfer more likely to seek repeat play if he plays in 3:30-4:00 or if he plays in 5:30-6:30 ?

You can treat your customer like cattle, with no consideration for their enjoyment, when you have an endless supply of customers willing to put up with grueling rounds.

Not saying they hadnled it all that well but 2 hours 30 minutes may not be practical given the constraints they likely face.

I understand that.
That's why I suggested, grooming the bunkers on the previous afternoon, after the last group teed off.
It's called, time management or proper scheduling.

Now let me ask you and the others how well groomed they expect the bunkers to be from say, 11:00 am and beyond, after all of those golfers have played the course ?   And remember, few of these other golfers leave the course in better shape than they found it.

I speak from experience in this regard as we are constrained by transportation schedules down this way and your 2 hour 30 minute pace, while likely to be accommodated on a fully prepared course, is at the very limit of our capabilities on a day with a "regular tee sheet".  

You'll have to define, "down this way"
With daily green fees of $ 500+ I don't see a shortage of labor as an issue at Pebble Beach.
Pebble Beach isn't your local muni or private course.

Are we now to expect the kitchen/dining room which opens at 6:00/6:30/7:00 to slow down orders such that maintenance can be done.

Trust me you will not find a high end resort operator who is as vigilant about pace as I though I know better than to expect 3:30 from your typical guests...

Agree that our pace is not typical.
But, we're talking about an iconic resort with a world famous course that packs them in at 10 minute intervals from start until finish.
And, a resort with an almost unlimited budget.
So, again, I ask you and others, why wouldn't you be prepared to open the course without the risk of having the golfer and the maintenance crew come into conflict with one another ?

Instead of the first tee time being 6:30 or 6:40, make it 7:00.

Don't you want to accomodate the broad spectrum of your guests ?

And, above all, shouldn't you want to encourage BRISK play, play which will provide more rounds and greater satisfaction to your guests, creating the desire for repeat play ?

Why would I want to spend 6:30 playing Pebble when I can play elsewhere in 3:30-4:00 ?

just not going to happen on a regualr basis and I am not going to sabotage the investoment of our owner to push pace of play to 3:30 or less even if I believe it would help the game. I am reducing our target round from 4:30 to about 4:10 or so (still have not set the exact number) but there is only so much you can do.

And this is one of the reasons that the game has ceased growning............. time.
People, golfers don't want to spend 5:00+ to 6:00+ waiting around to play golf.
If you set the bar low at the outset, you'll have to set it even lower.

If you happen upon our little slice of heaven play in 4:30 only to come in complaining to my staff and demanding a refund to the point I get involved I would likely tell you the same as I have told others in the past, including the guy who informs me how fast he plays at his club on a Wednesday morning... "

First of all, neither myself, nor any of our group "demanded" a refund, so get that notion out of your head.
We were polite, soft spoken and presented a reasoned appeal.
Secondly, from the time we booked the first time, we made our requirements known, that we had an 11:00 tee time elsewhere and needed to play fast.
Thirdly, none of us expected to receive a dime.
But, management should suffer the same discomfort that we suffered by having to cease play in the middle of our round.
Fourth,  If we said nothing, managements would feel that their policy is perfect.  We held and continue to hold the opposite view.

The fact that you're defending a 4:30 round, as the first round of the day, tells me that you're misquided and defending a flawed position.

Every day here is a Saturday and this is not your private club, we are a resort faciltiy and do the best we can to accommodate a wide varierty of players".  

How satisfied do you think they'll be after spending six and a half hours on a golf course, with most of that time waiting around for the group in front of them to complete play.

You just don't get it.

There is no silver bullet. Some do their part and get bashed by selfish, arrogant individuals who could care less about the guy they are playing with let alone the other 100 people on the golf course.

That's correct, and they're the slow golfers who hold up play and ruin it for everyone who plays behind them.

Ask the guys behind us if they had an enjoyable day without a single delay.

As I stated, you don't get it and are defending a flawed policy regarding pace of play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

you seem to forget the original discussion with PB when the tee time was made.

First, I would ask that you refrain from calling me a moron or any other such name.

When you knowingly ask wise guy, moronic questions, you'll be so labeled.

Second, when you go to a restaurant and your meal is not right, you either send it back or you eat it and tell the waiter that it's fine. At the very worst, if you are a passive-aggressive control freak you might say "tell the kitchen this is too salty but I'll eat it anyway". But you don't eat it and then ask for a refund.

Another moronic analogy that completely ignores a key element in the situation.

We gave advance notice of our intentions when we booked, and nobody informed us that we would not be able to meet our timeline, which was communicated to them.

Nobody indicated that there would be constraints on our round.
Nobody informed us that pace of play was set at 4:30.

Based upon your moronic example, if we had walked in on the 4th tee or 7th tee when the Marshalls approached us, do you think that they would have refunded us our money ?

How about the 9th tee ?

Stop being a moron and a douche.

Call Sweeney and complain to him............. again.
 

[Andrew Buck]

Let me make a statement that even morons should be able to comprehend.

In an environment where ten minute tee times are sold out, if the first group out plays in 4:30, no following group can play in less than 4:30, which, as night follows day, means that pace of play will deteriorate with those that follow the first group.

I won't speak for others, but I agree and understand this, I do not think they should promote a pace of 4:30 early in the morning.  I would expect in reality, they "accept" a round of 4:30 as opposed to "promote" it.  In reality, I expect they understand their demographic, and understand that they will turn off more customers nagging them to speed up if they are on a pace that will finish in 4:30 than if they discourage the occasional group that isn't content with playing at that pace.  Maybe that's a bad state of the game, but Pebble Beach is a unique experience with a unique customers.

What's also obvious, although not to the many morons on this site, is that many clubs start play at 6:30 or 7:00 and the golfers that are first off the tee never encounter maintenance personnel because the Superintendent is adept at properly delegating and scheduling his staff and their tasks because he has to prepare the course for those who play it, who also employ him.

There are a variety of policies in many places.  I've teed off on a scheduled tee times as early as 5:20 in the Chicago area and have been fine.  Of course, it appeared they only mowed greens on those days.  I have also had the first tee time at other locations where they informed me that I would need to stay behind maintenance and I accept that as well.  There are some tasks that can be performed in the dark, and others that really need daylight.  I don't know the micro-economic factors around the workforce in MP to determine the best practices for retention and workers.  If it's true that this is the first time the course monitor has ever had to ask a group to slow down due to speed, they likely have a time-frame that works for them.  I will fault them because they should have informed you when you were talking about how fast you were while making the tee time that the fastest round possible is 3:20.

The disconnect at Pebble Beach and all resort/hotel courses is that those playing the course have NO direct influence over the Superintendent's employment, and employment practices.  In other words, the Superintendent is NOT accountable to those who play the course.

I would suspect that if they thought it was financially beneficial to force maintenance adhere to a quicker maintenance schedule, and doing so would allow them to accommodate more customers, they would definitely do so.  Seeing as how they had never had this issue in the past, the risk of someone being able to overcome the mandated four ball and cart path only rule to play faster than 3:20 probably seemed a safe one. 

Today, younger golfers want to tee off early and play quickly, as they want to get back to their young families.
Can you imagine the uproar if those teeing off first were told that they had to play in no less than 4:30, or that they would be stopped from playing, mid round, so that maintenance could complete it's chores.

This is my situation often, especially on vacation.  I really only play when I have the first tee time so I can get back to my family.  Oddly, I rarely encounter an issue, and almost all "dew sweepers" play relatively fast (or have the understanding to allow people to play through).  I've employed this strategy multiple times at Kapalua on both Plantation and Bay,  Scottsdale, Sedona, Reunion, Vista Vallarta as well as several other destinations.  Some courses allow people to race around and others don't.  I think your case would be much stronger if they actually forced you to play no faster than 4:30, but that isn't what happened.

I will tell you that if my club didn't indulge my insane desire to play at daybreak prior to work, I likely wouldn't be a member (since the public courses do), but if a club didn't feel they should allow it, I can respect that decision.

This seems to be a case of the tail wagging the dog, despite the fact that the dog is paying $ 500+ per round.
Or, put another way, a total disregard for the customer because they have an over supply of customers.

This is where I think you see push back in this thread.  Most do not consider playing a round of golf in 3:20 minutes in a fourball as the type of disregard worthy of a refund.  Considering they are already mandating 4 balls, and enforcing cart path only, I would suspect the number of groups capable of playing in under 3:20 is quite low.  You clearly aren't going to be able to make everyone happy with pace of play.  If I play Pebble Beach, even in an early tee time I would understand I'm accepting a potentially slower round than I get at my club.  I would accept it for my chance to play Pebble Beach on rare occasion.  I would not accept it for an everyday scenario, and wouldn't play there.

I will also admit that if I booked the first tee time, and found them asking me to slow way down, my first human emotion would be frustration.  I think it's natural and they likely should have explained early on that completing the round in under 3:20 would not  be an option.  At that point, I have the option of returning to the clubhouse after 3 holes and seeking refund, or accepting the pace, and enjoying my day.  I'm certain *I* would accept my pace and enjoy my day.  However, if I regularly had the opportunity to play PVGC, NGLA, CP, MPCC and others, *I* may value that day at Pebble Beach differently.

And, it's certainly counter to the "While we're young" campaign

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

While I sympathize with your plight and agree with virtually all of your suggestions, I'm afraid you're tilting at windmills in this case.  Pebble is more than just a really good golf course with great scenery and tournament bonafides;  it's one of the premier tourist attractions in this country.  As such, you either buy your ticket and enjoy the ride or choose to spend your tourist dollars elsewhere.  It's akin to going to a Cubs game at Wrigley Field and complaining about all the fans juggling two beers, a smartphone camera and a bison dog who couldn't tell you who Fergie Jenkins was.

Jud T,

I'm aware of that.
I've been a defender of Pebble Beach when others claim that it's not such a great golf course.
I think it's brilliant, individually and collectively.
Conditioning is another matter, especially when nearby clubs, public and private are in far better condition.
But, I think the course is spectacular, with each hole being great in and of itself.
So, you'll get no argument from me, relative to the architecture.

One of our group, on his last play of Pebble Beach, took 6:30 to complete his round and swore that he'd never play there again, unless he was the first off the tee.

So, a resident, made the first time of the day and explained the situation (11:00 tee time elsewhere) when booking the reservation with PB's staff.
He was not told that there would be any restrictions on pace of play when he booked.

I'd have no problem if we were the first ones to tee off at 7:00 or 7:30, such that the scheduled daily maintenance could be completed, but, Pebble Beach wants the best of both worlds, they want the revenue of $ 12,000 between 6:30 and 7:30, so therein lies the conflict.

I'd rather see them perform those maintenance functions that can be accomodated in the previous afternoon (bunker work & fairway/rough cutting)

I think it's a management issue.

They'd also benefit in that they can get more groups around with play at 4:00-4:30 than they can at 5:30-6:30, so everyone would win.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andrew,

They stamp the practice range balls with "4:30".

They do so such that golfers will inquire as to the meaning of "4:30" on the golf ball.

When the Head Professional indicated that nobody plays in 3:20, I informed him that my club insists on a foursome completing their round in under 3:30.

Now, I realize that the "golfer" who plays Pebble Beach differs in general from others, but, promoting 4:30 is part of the problem.

Why not promote 4:00 or 3:30, especially to those teeing off first.

As I stated, the time the first group plays in, sets the tempo for the day.

If they play in 4:50 then every one else that follows will play in 4:50 or much longer.

But, they have an endless supply of golfers willing to endure an all day affair.

The resident member of our foursome told us that when economic times were difficult, they went out of their way to accomodate and encourage play and that today, with the unending supply of golfers, they could care less.

The 18th fairway was unplayable as they had used it to park cars a short while earlier.
What does that tell you about their concern for their golfing customer ?

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

They stamp the practice range balls with "4:30".

They do so such that golfers will inquire as to the meaning of "4:30" on the golf ball.

When the Head Professional indicated that nobody plays in 3:20, I informed him that my club insists on a foursome completing their round in under 3:30.

Now, I realize that the "golfer" who plays Pebble Beach differs in general from others, but, promoting 4:30 is part of the problem.

Why not promote 4:00 or 3:30, especially to those teeing off first.

As I stated, the time the first group plays in, sets the tempo for the day.

If they play in 4:50 then every one else that follows will play in 4:50 or much longer.

But, they have an endless supply of golfers willing to endure an all day affair.

The resident member of our foursome told us that when economic times were difficult, they went out of their way to accomodate and encourage play and that today, with the unending supply of golfers, they could care less.

The 18th fairway was unplayable as they had used it to park cars a short while earlier.
What does that tell you about their concern for their golfing customer ?

If the 18th fairway was unplayable, that certainly isn't acceptable for that money.  

Everything you say in this post makes sense, but it comes across much different (at least to me) than your original post.  I don't disagree with you that they should promote a faster time, and that they should have communicated the limitations on the first tee time.  

As for the 4:30, it's unfortunate, but I suspect if they strictly enforced a faster pace (made people pick up and move on) they would lose far more customers and alienate them than striving for 4:30.  Despite a desire not to take part in slow rounds, I will still almost certainly desire to take a trip there and play it once, so I guess I'm part of the problem.

[Tim Martin]

Quick question - let's say the crew was on the 4 holes ahead of the first group and you run into them.  You put them at risk because your ball could strike them.  You also slow their work, so the following groups could possibly run into them.

To be blunt, I think the risk you posed to those workers outweighed your need to play in 2.5 hours.

Dan,

To be blunt, you'd have to be a moron to adopt that position.



With the rarity of a total eclipse I for once find myself agreeing with you 100%

Your position may just be slightly contradictory to your recently stating that petty delays were, well, just that, but I can happily let that slide and enjoy the rarity of the moment for now.  

So, to be clear, if by some small miracle you had been followed by a couple of equally quick groups, we can take it that Pebble would have actively encouraged the outbreak of total gridlock. Incredible.

And, speaking as someone with half a foot in the door, the guy in the Pro Shop is perhaps not the best point of contact in such situations. Good at following dictated formulae, not so good at big picture thinking. If you actually want to make a point, a strong letter to management might be more productive.

The draft is already in progress

The letter will find the trash can quicker than a Kit Kat wrapper. You need to get over it.

[Doug Sobieski]

Cart paths only, and potentially playing under 3 hours with a 24 (with rental clubs, no less, per the story) in the group is far fetched on such a golf course. It could not have been a comfortable pace, despite Pat's world class abilities and "Bull in a China Shop" method of getting his points across here. Full disclosure (since Pat seems intent on whipping it out to measure it), I was once told by a multiple major champion that I was the fastest player he'd ever seen, so I understand the reality of fast play (although I've since intentionally slowed down because I still had to wait for others, yet I remain very fast). I've also done my share of studying pace of play while I was still a PGA professional.

The initial post in this thread is a great example of how far from reality some people on this site are. The "1st World Problems" that some people complain about are incredible. I played with someone on Tuesday who told me about his girlfriend's 10 year old daughter that had an aneurysm over the weekend and was in an induced coma. It quickly put things in perspective. The arrogance of someone COMPLAINING about not being able to run around Pebble in 2:30 defies logic. Going in to complain was simply an exercise in pulling out the ruler once again to make sure everyone knew how fast an idiot can play. By the way, you still had plenty of time to get to the next golf course. The inconvenience of not being able to get to Walgreens to pick up a new bottle of Head & Shoulders certainly didn't ruin your day.

Would anyone go to one of the most renowned fine dining restaurants in the world and tell them that they made reservations at 5:00pm solely so they could eat in 45 minutes because they were trying to catch the latest Adam Sandler movie at 6:15? Maybe, despite it being completely moronic. There are things that must be done to present such a high level of dining that can't be skipped. The chef isn't going to cook faster (microwave?) or skip steps (oh, did you want drinks?) at such an establishment. How many successful businesses build their procedures around a customer that might appear once a decade without warning (I know, I know, Pat told them they wanted to go first in order to play fast, but could Pebble have anticipated someone trying to run around in 2:30, thereby informing them of their maintenance practices)? I'd be willing to bet that they have zero other full rate groups annually that play in 2:30, let alone under 3 hours (if riding and cart path only). The marshall indicated that he'd NEVER had to tell someone to slow down, which indicates that Pebble had never had anyone push the maintenance staff to that extent before. It's a new record! The fastest group to ever play Pebble! Let's give them the keys to the course! Unless, of course, Pat is embellishing his story. I don't think it's unreasonable for Pebble to expect that people paying $500 would prefer raked bunkers and mowed greens, and they plan their practices accordingly so that they don't interfere with 99.999999% of groups that play there.

Pat wanted one of the biggest golf factories in the world (I assume he knew about Pebble prior to shelling out five bills) to change their procedures and practices solely for a complete moron and his accomplices. Obviously, the great Pat forgot that courses have maintenance staffs that go out prior to play beginning, which caught him off guard. If he wasn't such a complete moron (his preferred word, so I'll borrow it again), maybe he would have told the golf shop in advance that he was willing to sign a waiver (that he should have had drafted prior to arrival) against future complaints if his group were allowed to play through the maintenance staff and complete their round on holes that hadn't been prepped.

Unbelievable. I've been here since December 1999, a couple months after the site started. I've gotten to know Ran, because he and I are in the same business. But I've seen enough of Pat's arrogant, condescending attitude toward the opinions of others. Tact and diplomacy is not something he's familiar with. I've been avoiding his threads for quite a while, but I couldn't resist boiling my blood one more time. If any of the people I've gotten to know here want to reach me, try dougsobie@mac.com. I hope to run into some of you out at Ballyneal in the future.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I disagree.

A well reasoned, properly structured letter resonates with intelligent people in positions of authority.

You'll often hear of a change in policy caused by a concerned consumer's letter.

I think there's an enormous difference between constructive criticism and griping, and the reader quickly distinguishes between the two.

The editing continues  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cart paths only, and potentially playing under 3 hours with a 24 (with rental clubs, no less, per the story) in the group is far fetched on such a golf course.


All three of us asked that 24 if he was available for Member-Guests.
He had a great left arm, ramrod straight, and power.
A nice swing with a questionable short game.
It's only questionable because you don't want to believe it.

It could not have been a comfortable pace, despite Pat's world class abilities and "Bull in a China Shop" method of getting his points across here.


It was a comfortable pace and the Marshalls would be the first to tell you so.
Jim, the Marshall we had the most contact with, was an terrific fellow who was sympathetic to our cause.
But, I'm glad that you, who weren't in attendance are such an expert on this particular round.

Full disclosure (since Pat seems intent on whipping it out to measure it), I was once told by a multiple major champion that I was the fastest player he'd ever seen, so I understand the reality of fast play (although I've since intentionally slowed down because I still had to wait for others, yet I remain very fast). I've also done my share of studying pace of play while I was still a PGA professional.

Next to a PGA Tour player, who isn't speedy ?

The initial post in this thread is a great example of how far from reality some people on this site are.

I can assure you that I'm as about as close to reality as you can get.
Obviously, as a former PGA Professional, you weren't.

The "1st World Problems" that some people complain about are incredible.

Perhaps you need a refresher course in reading comprehension.
My complaint is about "promoting slow play"
It would appear that you missed that.

I played with someone on Tuesday who told me about his girlfriend's 10 year old daughter that had an aneurysm over the weekend and was in an induced coma. It quickly put things in perspective.

I've survived five heart procedures and Stage IV cancer, hence I don't need some has been PGA Pro to tell me about reality and perspective.
Try sitting around the waiting room at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center for a year before you open your uninformed mouth.

The arrogance of someone COMPLAINING about not being able to run around Pebble in 2:30 defies logic.

We didn't complain about not being able to play in 2:30, we complained that our round was interupted and we were forced to sit and wait on numerous occassions, when we had been specific about our needs when booking the first tee time of the day reservation.  Perhaps you missed that too.  I'd suggest that you bone up on your reading skills before typing.

Going in to complain was simply an exercise in pulling out the ruler once again to make sure everyone knew how fast an idiot can play.
We didn't go in and complain.
We were very polite, stated our case and asked that a refund or credit be given to us.
We expected zilch, but, thought we should ask, given that we paid $ 2,000 for the privilege of the first tee time of the day.

By the way, you still had plenty of time to get to the next golf course.

Not really.


The inconvenience of not being able to get to Walgreens to pick up a new bottle of Head & Shoulders certainly didn't ruin your day.

Actually, it was a Rite-Aid, and it was for vital prescription medication.
You should get all of the facts prior to making a fool of yourself with uninformed statements

Would anyone go to one of the most renowned fine dining restaurants in the world and tell them that they made reservations at 5:00pm solely so they could eat in 45 minutes because they were trying to catch the latest Adam Sandler movie at 6:15?

Another moronic, flawed analogy.
If I called the restaurant in advance, and told them that I had another committment at 7:30 and that if I came to the restaurant at 5:00, I needed to be done with dinner by 7:00 and they said "no problem", but then, when I got to the restaurant and ordered my dinner, which I prepaid a hefty sum for, and they said that they couldn't serve the meal due to delays with the kitchen equipment, which they were aware of when I made my reservation, then, I would be entitled to a refund.  Would you agree with that, or would you care to make another moronic, seriously flawed analogy ?


Maybe, despite it being completely moronic. There are things that must be done to present such a high level of dining that can't be skipped.

Then, they should have told me that I couldn't be done by 7:00

The chef isn't going to cook faster (microwave?) or skip steps (oh, did you want drinks?) at such an establishment. How many successful businesses build their procedures around a customer that might appear once a decade without warning (I know, I know, Pat told them they wanted to go first in order to play fast, but could Pebble have anticipated someone trying to run around in 2:30, thereby informing them of their maintenance practices)?

You're obviously not familiar with it, but, it's called "disclosure".

Have you ever noticed the warnings on drug labels or commercials.

The vendor has an obligation to disclose the facts, not bait and switch.

When you outline your needs, and the provider agrees to them, and then reneges on the deal, that's inappropriate.
We outlined our needs in advance.
If they couldn't meet them, they had an obligation to disclose that to us.

But, perhaps your business practices and ethics don't require you to disclose material information to your clients.

I'd be willing to bet that they have zero other full rate groups annually that play in 2:30, let alone under 3 hours (if riding and cart path only). The marshall indicated that he'd NEVER had to tell someone to slow down, which indicates that Pebble had never had anyone push the maintenance staff to that extent before.

NO, it only means that that Marshall never had to tell someone to slow down.
Or, are you stating that no one, in the history of Pebble Beach, who teed off on the first time, ever caught up with maintenance ?
Which is it ?

It's a new record! The fastest group to ever play Pebble! Let's give them the keys to the course! Unless, of course, Pat is embellishing his story.

Ask the Starter, The Guest Concierge or the Head Professional, the'll all corroborate the story.

Let's see, you're calling me a liar, but, you have no facts at your disposal to dispute any aspect of what I've related.
I'd say that you're beyond being a moron.
Did you cease being a PGA Professional voluntarily, or under duress ?

I don't think it's unreasonable for Pebble to expect that people paying $500 would prefer raked bunkers and mowed greens, and they plan their practices accordingly so that they don't interfere with 99.999999% of groups that play there.

Do you really think that the bunkers are raked by noon ?
Or that the bunkers couldn't be raked the previous afternoon ?
Those greens are small and cutting them, if they were cut, and I have my doubts, doesn't take long.

But, the issue isn't our brisk play, it's the promotion of play in 4:30
That's what we were lectured on by the registration desk, the general starter and the first tee starter.
Perhaps you missed that part...... again.

Pat wanted one of the biggest golf factories in the world (I assume he knew about Pebble prior to shelling out five bills) to change their procedures and practices solely for a complete moron and his accomplices. Obviously, the great Pat forgot that courses have maintenance staffs that go out prior to play beginning, which caught him off guard. If he wasn't such a complete moron (his preferred word, so I'll borrow it again), maybe he would have told the golf shop in advance that he was willing to sign a waiver (that he should have had drafted prior to arrival) against future complaints if his group were allowed to play through the maintenance staff and complete their round on holes that hadn't been prepped.


My, my, we're getting testy.

Truth be told, what do I care about raked bunkers ?

I thought bunkers were hazards, not perfectly groomed sandy areas.
Secondly, bunker raking could be accomplished the previous afternoon.
If the last tee off time is 3:00, the maintenance crew could follow the last group and groom the bunkers to their hearts content.
Oh, that's right, by the time the last group tees off, they won't get in for 6 and a half hours, until after dark.
OK, so the maintenance crew could groom the first 9 holes, and then the last 9 holes the next morning.
Did you ever think of that, or are you one dimensional ?

Unbelievable. I've been here since December 1999, a couple months after the site started. I've gotten to know Ran, because he and I are in the same business. But I've seen enough of Pat's arrogant, condescending attitude toward the opinions of others. Tact and diplomacy is not something he's familiar with. I've been avoiding his threads for quite a while, but I couldn't resist boiling my blood one more time.

Do you think for one second that I care about your whining opinion or your relationship with Ran ?
Because you're so obtuse, I'll tell you, I don't.
As for tact and diplomacy, I'm not a former PGA Professional, so maybe tact and diplomacy weren't your strong suit.
But, when it comes to tact and diplomacy, there's a time and place for it.
I started a thread about an incident and the "promoting of slow play", and you personalized it, you moron, not me.
Do me a favor, keep avoiding my threads, as you add nothing of substance to them, or this site.

If any of the people I've gotten to know here want to reach me, try dougsobie@mac.com.
I hope to run into some of you out at Ballyneal in the future.

If you've gotten to know all of these people since 1999, why would you need to provide them with your contact information at this late juncture, 14 years later ?

You'd think, if you had gotten to know them and had a decent relationship with them, that they'd already have your contact information.
Something seems amiss, maybe it's your personality or lack of reading comprehension skills, or possibly, your lack of tact and diplomacy.

Who knows ?

And certainly, I don't care..

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,

I disagree.

A well reasoned, properly structured letter resonates with intelligent people in positions of authority.

You'll often hear of a change in policy caused by a concerned consumer's letter.

I think there's an enormous difference between constructive criticism and griping, and the reader quickly distinguishes between the two.

The editing continues  

Pat--

I hope that is the case. I often despair that it is almost impossible for a round (when the course is full) to take less than 4 1/2 hours at my home course here in S.C. But the course is simply too difficult for the majority of those who play it to navigate in much less time than that.

Will you post a copy of the letter here when you've finished it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I don't know the particulars of your course.

Some courses do impede fast play, whether it be long walks from green to tee, an abundance of hazards, etc., etc..

But, usually, it's the culture of the club that sets the tone and pace of play.

Once the first group takes 4 1/2 hours, succeeding groups can never improve on that, so it's critical for the early group/s to play at a much faster pace since they have no one in front of them.

We took 4:40 down to 3:50 the first month we instituted a slow play policy/penalty.
It was a non-confrontational time out - time in, differential policy.

Easy to administer.

Pace of play policies are merely a reflection of the "will" of the membership.

As to the letter, when I get a response, I'll post both.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()