[Greg Tallman]

Pat, would you have made such a scene if you had been treated the same at some posh private club? Say Trump Bedminster.

[Carl Johnson]

Question for Pat - Your round at PB - were the three of you (assuming you'd not bring in the single) playing a game - skins, 9's, wolf, or something else, or were you just playing the course?

Carl,

We weren't competing against one another, we were just having fun with each other and trying to play the best we could.

The one thing I noticed was that the 18th hole has become unsightly with all of the modern homes flanking the hole.
You don't seem to notice them as much on other holes because they're off to the side, whereas, when you play 18, you're almost aiming right at them from the tee

I ask because I am interested in the pace of play issue, which has never before been addressed on this site.    What you were doing at PB was what I could call "course touring."  No offense.  I do it too.  Yet for me, golf is about the competition.  When you're competing, and I am not talking about club championships, USGA championships, or pro tournaments, but rather the friendly very low dollar bet, my sense is that you (that means me) play a little slower than when just touring.  You may have folks on the course touring, and some competing, at the same time, and this is going to present "pace of play issues."  There are plenty of other POP issues, of course, but that's why I wondered if you were expecting to play a "game" in 2.5 hours.  So, question, Pat.  When you play a "friendly very low dollar bet" (if ever), does that slow down your play a bit, or not?

[Dan Herrmann]

Quick question - let's say the crew was on the 4 holes ahead of the first group and you run into them.  You put them at risk because your ball could strike them.  You also slow their work, so the following groups could possibly run into them.

To be blunt, I think the risk you posed to those workers outweighed your need to play in 2.5 hours.

[Adam Clayman]

Dan, The risk?

I've seen plenty of crew members working on golf courses and never once was anyone struck. I'm sure it happens, but it must be a seriously low number.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Question for Pat - Your round at PB - were the three of you (assuming you'd not bring in the single) playing a game - skins, 9's, wolf, or something else, or were you just playing the course?

Carl,

We weren't competing against one another, we were just having fun with each other and trying to play the best we could.

The one thing I noticed was that the 18th hole has become unsightly with all of the modern homes flanking the hole.
You don't seem to notice them as much on other holes because they're off to the side, whereas, when you play 18, you're almost aiming right at them from the tee

I ask because I am interested in the pace of play issue, which has never before been addressed on this site.    What you were doing at PB was what I could call "course touring."  No offense.  I do it too.  Yet for me, golf is about the competition.  When you're competing, and I am not talking about club championships, USGA championships, or pro tournaments, but rather the friendly very low dollar bet, my sense is that you (that means me) play a little slower than when just touring.  You may have folks on the course touring, and some competing, at the same time, and this is going to present "pace of play issues."  There are plenty of other POP issues, of course, but that's why I wondered if you were expecting to play a "game" in 2.5 hours.  So, question, Pat.  When you play a "friendly very low dollar bet" (if ever), does that slow down your play a bit, or not?

Carl,

While we didn't have any money on the line, we were definitely competing to play our best and shoot the lowest score.
I had a very good score going so I wasn't being cavalier and neither were the other fellows.
I took adequate time lining up an 8 foot birdie putt on # 8 and was deeply disappointed when I missed it.
Ditto my 15 foot birdie putt on # 10 and a 6 footer I missed at # 2 and a 12 footer at # 4 and # 6
On the first nine holes I had 7 birdie putts and tried to line up and make every one.
I also had a 10 footer at # 17 and misread it
The greens were slow and appeared to have been verti-cut and top dressed a while ago.
Ditto Spyglass.

Going from the lightening speeds of Tehema and MPCC to PB was an adjustment I didn't succeed in making, but I was genuinely trying to execute every shot with care.

I don't vary my pre-shot process for driving, irons, recovery and putting.
In fact friends make fun of my two practice stroke routine prior to putting.
And, because Fed-X, which promotes shipping your golf clubs, sent my clubs to Indianapolis instead of Monterey, I used a short putter for the entire trip.  I do NOT have a pre-putt routine for the long putter, I just aim and putt.

In every round at MPCC we averaged less than 3 hours, and, we never rushed or felt rushed.
And, we had fun, telling jokes, busting chops and raving about the golf course.

Hope that helps

[Patrick_Mucci]

Question for Pat - Your round at PB - were the three of you (assuming you'd not bring in the single) playing a game - skins, 9's, wolf, or something else, or were you just playing the course?

Carl,

We weren't competing against one another, we were just having fun with each other and trying to play the best we could.

The one thing I noticed was that the 18th hole has become unsightly with all of the modern homes flanking the hole.
You don't seem to notice them as much on other holes because they're off to the side, whereas, when you play 18, you're almost aiming right at them from the tee

those homes have always been there...maybe your draw/hook is becoming more pronounced...why so negative about PB, sounds like you should've just played the par-3, LOL

Maybe you haven't been there lately, but, they're not the same homes, they're bigger and more ostentatious.

[John Kavanaugh]

Could someone who speaks to Tom Huckaby please inform him of Pat's sudden love affair with outside agencies.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

would you have made such a scene if you had been treated the same at some posh private club?

"Such a scene" ?  ?  ?

What scene ?

I spoke to the Starter, the Guest Concierge and the Head Professional.
And I spoke calmly and factually, so what "scene" are you referring to ?

As to your moronic question, since when would a private club charge me $ 535 to play their course ?

And, it would be the "Member's" choice/responsibility to voice his dissatisfaction or remain silent.

Say Trump Bedminster.

It wouldn't happen at Trump Bedminster because Trump runs a far more efficient operation that caters to the members.

Pebble Beach doesn't care about members because they don't have any.
They have an endless supply of tourists.
The tail wags the dog because they have a seemingly unlimited supply of customers lining up to stay at the hotel and play the golf course at a hefty price.

Now, here's the amazing part.
The condition of the golf course was mediocre at best.
And, that's with carts prohibited from leaving the cart paths, ergo the fairways should have been in great condition.
The 18th fairway was almost unplayable because they had parked cars on it recently for a car show.
That should tell you all you need to know when it comes to their philosophy regarding what they think of those who choose to play golf on that great golf course .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Quick question - let's say the crew was on the 4 holes ahead of the first group and you run into them.  You put them at risk because your ball could strike them.  You also slow their work, so the following groups could possibly run into them.

To be blunt, I think the risk you posed to those workers outweighed your need to play in 2.5 hours.

Dan,

To be blunt, you'd have to be a moron to adopt that position.

[Andrew Buck]

Pat,

Are you saying it was cart path only at Pebble, and you still were on pace to play in 2:30?

Having not played either course, maybe design features account for the difference, but if your (presumably) three ball played MPCC in 2:50, it seems odd that adding a 24 handicap for a four ball and cart path only would yield a pace 20 minutes quicker.

I have to give you a lot of credit for being able to carry that pace and not alter your game.

[Jud_T]

Just one more reason not to go back to Pebble.  Go once with your dad and once with your son, pay up, get the obligatory photo op and enjoy being a golf tourist for the day.  And no, there is no reason to feel guilty about thinking about Bandon before the trip's even over.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are you saying it was cart path only at Pebble, and you still were on pace to play in 2:30?

Andrew,

We played in 3:20, but would have played in less time without all the delays

Having not played either course, maybe design features account for the difference, but if your (presumably) three ball played MPCC in 2:50, it seems odd that adding a 24 handicap for a four ball and cart path only would yield a pace 20 minutes quicker.


I think green speeds were a factor.
Pebble Beach's greens were very slow by comparison, making putting much easier and quicker.

I have to give you a lot of credit for being able to carry that pace and not alter your game.

I think that's where the misconception comes in.
I did nothing to alter my pre-shot routine and swing.

It's getting to your ball and being ready to play when it's your turn.
We did play ready golf with permission.  Ie, I'll hit if you don't mind.

I notice that many golfers don't begin to get ready until it's their turn to play and that includes reading putts

[Paul Gray]

Quick question - let's say the crew was on the 4 holes ahead of the first group and you run into them.  You put them at risk because your ball could strike them.  You also slow their work, so the following groups could possibly run into them.

To be blunt, I think the risk you posed to those workers outweighed your need to play in 2.5 hours.

Dan,

To be blunt, you'd have to be a moron to adopt that position.



With the rarity of a total eclipse I for once find myself agreeing with you 100%

Your position may just be slightly contradictory to your recently stating that petty delays were, well, just that, but I can happily let that slide and enjoy the rarity of the moment for now.  

So, to be clear, if by some small miracle you had been followed by a couple of equally quick groups, we can take it that Pebble would have actively encouraged the outbreak of total gridlock. Incredible.

And, speaking as someone with half a foot in the door, the guy in the Pro Shop is perhaps not the best point of contact in such situations. Good at following dictated formulae, not so good at big picture thinking. If you actually want to make a point, a strong letter to management might be more productive.

[jeffwarne]

Somewhere out there in cyberspace there's a group of four players raving about their recent round at Pebble, where they teed off at 6:50, played in exactly threee hours and forty five minutes, and never saw the group in front of them or behind them

They did remark though that upon their return there was a group of morons in the pro shop, complaining about the pace of play

[Scott Weersing]

Whatever happened to the customer is always right?

I thought it sad but funny that a marshall asked you to slow down to match a 4:30 pace of play.

One afternoon at Bandon Trails, our twosome was playing fast and we saw a twosome putting out on the 7th green when we teed off on 7th tee. We finished the hole and the marshall said we could play through as our pace was faster than the twosome in front of us. We were not waiting for the twosome in front of us, but the marshall took advantage of the halfway house, encouraged the slower group to purchase a drink,  and asked the twosome to let us play through. I thought that was great way to promote fast play. Yeah, I know, Bandon does not always have fast play, but when I go in February, I need there to be fast play to get in 36 holes each day.

I don't know of any courses in my area where the marshalls monitor the pace of play. The marshalls just drive around. Most courses don't even have marshalls because course operators believe, if you pay, you can play as slow as you want.

So I think it is funny when the USGA as a while we are young campaign. It is trying to grow the game but course operators need to change also.

[jeffwarne]

Whatever happened to the customer is always right?

I thought it sad but funny that a marshall asked you to slow down to match a 4:30 pace of play.

 

Scott,
To be fair, the marshall did not tell Pat to slow down to a 4:30 pace.(that was a quote later in the shop)
The marshall asked him to slow down to avoid interference with the maintenance crew, which he never played through due to the delays, yet played in 3:20.

While it could be argued that perhaps the situation in this case could've been handled differently (it's clear the 6:50 group wasn't going to catch maintenance and the crew could've let Pat buzz through)

the customer is most definitely not always right, and that's part of the problem with pace of play issues as the slow players ARE often treated as if though the customer is always right.
Can't stand that expression BTW

[Andrew Buck]

Pat,

Are you saying it was cart path only at Pebble, and you still were on pace to play in 2:30?

Andrew,

We played in 3:20, but would have played in less time without all the delays

Having not played either course, maybe design features account for the difference, but if your (presumably) three ball played MPCC in 2:50, it seems odd that adding a 24 handicap for a four ball and cart path only would yield a pace 20 minutes quicker.


I think green speeds were a factor.
Pebble Beach's greens were very slow by comparison, making putting much easier and quicker.

I have to give you a lot of credit for being able to carry that pace and not alter your game.

I think that's where the misconception comes in.
I did nothing to alter my pre-shot routine and swing.

It's getting to your ball and being ready to play when it's your turn.
We did play ready golf with permission.  Ie, I'll hit if you don't mind.

I notice that many golfers don't begin to get ready until it's their turn to play and that includes reading putts

Pat,  I understand the concept of "ready golf".  I am not as well traveled as you are, and I haven't been around the game as long as you, however I've still played several thousand rounds in a northern climate in the last 30 years (from as young as I can remember).  I have played 18 in a cart in 1:15'ish, but the course was empty and I wasn't grinding.  In high school/college, we would regularly play a 4 ball game in 2 hours trying to beat the sun, but that was on a 6,300 yard course we were intimately familiar with (negating reading greens) and playing simultaneously (not just ready golf).  Every round I play (other than significant competitions) is played with ready golf.  I would think on *most* courses, a reasonable pace for a four ball playing ready golf (but not speed golf) would be in the 3 a 3:20 range  in carts, slightly longer walking.

I've played with poor players who are fast, and eventual tour players that were slow.  That said, if playing ready golf, the better players are capable of doing it quicker simply due to number of shots.  I think playing cart path only is by far the slowest type of golf, and certainly adds :15 - :20 minutes to any round, grabbing multiple clubs, walking from and back to the cart after every shot.  

That said, the fact you waited :45 minutes, prompting a refund request, and still finished in 3:20 with cartpath only, a 24 handicap presumably shooting 100 on a major championship course with 100+ traps without altering routines certainly distinguishes your group as the fastest group of golfers I would have ever encountered.  I wish I (an all golfers) could be as efficient.  

[John Kavanaugh]

This is my solution. If we respect the maintenance workers they will respect us.  How about we let them finish their jobs unencumbered at a time reasonable for 99% of all golfers and they not interrupt our golf games by respecting an organized work schedule.  

What would happen if the 40 or so GCA members who easily play in 2:30 booked the first 10 tee times at a given resort.  Should the crew step aside and not prepare the course so our little precious speed demons can all finish on time to make it to the next resort after running errands.  Suddenly its noon and nothing has gotten done.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Somewhere out there in cyberspace there's a group of four players raving about their recent round at Pebble, where they teed off at 6:50, played in exactly threee hours and forty five minutes, and never saw the group in front of them or behind them

They did remark though that upon their return there was a group of morons in the pro shop, complaining about the pace of play

I can't stop laughing after reading this post!
Cheers

[Lou_Duran]

What would happen if the 40 or so GCA members who easily play in 2:30 booked the first 10 tee times at a given resort.

This one has me off my rocker!  Or are they playing a quick 9-hole match?  Reminds me of the Camel and the Eye of a Needle parable.

[Jason Thurman]

What would happen if the 40 or so GCA members who easily play in 2:30 booked the first 10 tee times at a given resort.  Should the crew step aside and not prepare the course so our little precious speed demons can all finish on time to make it to the next resort after running errands.  Suddenly its noon and nothing has gotten done.  

Totally agree, but not entirely true. Perhaps nothing has gotten done on the first course, but group one has already reached the 8th tee in their second round of the morning down the road. If a whole day of golf tourists playing a lifetime round on a half-prepared course is the cost of letting a group of GCA'ers play three hit and run rounds at some of the best courses in the world in a single day with daylight to spare, is any real harm done? Judging by some of the posts in the "Are bunkers too perfect?" thread, the answer is "No, and in fact, the tourists are better off for having played a half-prepared course because golf with modern greenskeeping is too easy."

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat,

would you have made such a scene if you had been treated the same at some posh private club?

"Such a scene" ?  ?  ?

What scene ?

I spoke to the Starter, the Guest Concierge and the Head Professional.
And I spoke calmly and factually, so what "scene" are you referring to ?

As to your moronic question, since when would a private club charge me $ 535 to play their course ?

And, it would be the "Member's" choice/responsibility to voice his dissatisfaction or remain silent.

Say Trump Bedminster.

It wouldn't happen at Trump Bedminster because Trump runs a far more efficient operation that caters to the members.

Pebble Beach doesn't care about members because they don't have any.
They have an endless supply of tourists.
The tail wags the dog because they have a seemingly unlimited supply of customers lining up to stay at the hotel and play the golf course at a hefty price.

Now, here's the amazing part.
The condition of the golf course was mediocre at best.
And, that's with carts prohibited from leaving the cart paths, ergo the fairways should have been in great condition.
The 18th fairway was almost unplayable because they had parked cars on it recently for a car show.
That should tell you all you need to know when it comes to their philosophy regarding what they think of those who choose to play golf on that great golf course .

Pat, the last time I played Trump Bedmnster, with Jack Windolf actually, we were the first ones off and continually kept running into the guy cutting the greens.  It didn't bother me because we were playing quickly and I just enjoyed being at the course.

[jeffwarne]

As to your moronic question, since when would a private club charge me $ 535 to play their course ?





size][/color][/color]

Pat,
Have you checked the Unaccompanied rate at Shinnecock, NGLA, or Sebonack lately?

[Keith OHalloran]

Jeff,
Pat did not ask when a private club would charge that much.

What he said was "When would a private club charge ME...."

You don't think the clubs you cited would charge Pat the going rate do you? 

[Jason Thurman]

Jeff,
Pat did not ask when a private club would charge that much.

What he said was "When would a private club charge ME...."

You don't think the clubs you cited would charge Pat the going rate do you? 

I just want to know if he'd ask them for a refund of whatever rate he gets charged if he was only able to play in 3:20 thanks to their maintenance crew.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()