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Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2013, 09:54:51 AM »
He's unsympathetic, and do you know why ?

Because you were asking for your money back after playing eighteen holes.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 10:04:31 AM »
He's unsympathetic, and do you know why ?

Because you were asking for your money back after playing eighteen holes.

after making multiple employees jobs more difficult ::) ::)

Most people wouldn't find that being asked to "slow down"and  play an "iconic" course, in an incredible setting, in a foursome, in three hours twenty minutes,  particularly burdensome

high class problems ::) ::)

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 10:10:32 AM »
He's unsympathetic, and do you know why ?

Because you were asking for your money back after playing eighteen holes.

Yes, I wonder if they would have been willing to grant the request if you walked off after 3, since that is when you realized they weren't going to accommodate your "leisurely" pace of a fourball in 2:30 and were going to force you on a 3:20 minute death march.  

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 10:21:00 AM »
Let's not get away from the fact that Pebble actively ENCOURAGES those first off to play the course in 4 hours and 30 minutes. That's insane.

agreed that is insane, but 3;15  would've allowed employees to do their jobs,

slumming it with the great unwashed can be so rough.

On a related note, a member of ours had a car issue and called me 40 minutes before his tee time in the club championship, stranded on the side of the road.
I sent my assistant to pick him up and he made it by a couple of minutes.
He said when the tow truck driver arrived he explained his predicament and the driver said "that's too bad, perhaps you can make the polo matches in the afternoon" ;D ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 10:24:35 AM »
I look at Pebble Beach like I do Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears or any other celebrity...they routinely do insane things because they operate in a different reality than the rest of the world.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 10:31:16 AM »
Except they were willing to play ahead of the crew. Why should the company care if some group wants to play on?

Adam,

It is dangerous.  I have seen plenty of guys take shots when crew members are standing where they would not if it were golfers. Pebble is running a business and their crew has a schedule.  Allowing the first time off a 3:30 window if fiscally responsible.

At a public facility like Pebble, I tend to agree.  I will say, I play way too much golf at daybreak during the week due to time constraints and desire to play before work.  I normally play through (or ahead) of ground crews, many of who I know, and it may result in a slight delay, or a few unmowed greens, but I'm conscious not to hit into them as they finish a hole.  That said, based on Pat's story

1)  He indicated this had never happened at Pebble Beach before.  If that is the case, meaning they have a sample size of thousands of first tee times, and no one has ever ran into the mowers, it would seem the timing they have set up is very reasonable.  

2)  Considering that pretty much everyone who tries to get the first tee time at every course plays fast, the fact it's never happened highlights just how "Uncommonly" fast they were playing for a 4 ball.  A 4 ball on a course with over 110 sand traps, ample hazards, and the ability to host major championships at a pace of 2:30 with a 24 handicap is really speed golf.  I have a hard time believing that it's achievable without playing simultaneously.  I'm not talking about playing ready golf out of turn, but almost no talking, certainly no reading of greens and rapid fire.  Maybe a little easier with a caddy fixing ballmarks, raking sand, etc.  

3)  I do agree with Pat that there is no reason to "promote" 4:30, especially to the early morning groups.  I suspect that was a reaction to the nature of the request expecting a refund for a round that took 3:20 minutes.  

4)  I guess overall, I just have a hard time with the problem here.  I do hate to be slowed down, and often will choose not to play, but if you have a 4ball, you have a window of 4:20 minutes to your next tee time, and they warn you early that you will need to carry a 3:20 pace, I don't feel like that is so absurd to accommodate.  If you can't enjoy a round as a fourball in 3:20 minutes, I wouldn't think there are many courses you could play without the first tee time and enjoy.  

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 10:32:46 AM »
Let's not get away from the fact that Pebble actively ENCOURAGES those first off to play the course in 4 hours and 30 minutes. That's insane.

I would agree with that.  Although, I doubt that is really the case, and more likely a reaction to the refund.  I would suspect they aren't going to rush any group that is playing at that pace, but I'm sure if Pat's group had maintained a 3:30 pace throughout, they wouldn't have been encouraged to slow down.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 10:39:40 AM »
I look at Pebble Beach like I do Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears or any other celebrity...they routinely do insane things because they operate in a different reality than the rest of the world.

and Pat doesn't? ;D ;D ;) ;)

If 4 balls playing in 2:30 was the norm(it's not) Pebble would do what most courses do and simply not allow tee times till later
we open our tee at 7, to allow for the 2;30 two-ball
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 10:39:49 AM »
Ben: they do a commendable job of keeping things moving at The Old Course - we played a 4 ball in 4 hours the day I played. Hardly speed golf but perfectly satisfactory for a mid-morning tee-time and quicker than expected. I just wish they didn't have us teeing off practically at the ladies tees on many holes to do it.

Pat: that's an infuriating story.

That was my experience at TOC in the mid 2000s.  My son and I had an early time, we had a hard time finding where we paid and only got to the tee 10 minutes before we were to go off.  The starter had given our spots to another twosome, and after giving us a bunch of crap, he tells me to hang around, that he'll do his best to get us off in the next couple hours.  We had a heated exchange during which I told him we'd putt for 15 minutes then I'd be heading over to the clubhouse and have a discussion with the club manager.  Somehow a slot became available 10 minutes after our scheduled tee time and he put two other singles with us sans caddies (a shortage that morning, apparently).  The course was set up at around 6,000 yards- so short that we hit over the shed on 17 with a slight fade, never to find our balls, apparently through the fairway left- it bore no resemblance to what we see on TV.  We got around in 4 hours on the dot with regular help from the riding marshals who were on our two playing partners like flies on ...., (both out-of-shape, 20+ handicappers carrying staff bags, one from Aus, the other from NZ, great guys, fairly strong, but with no control of their balls).  We got to see a lot of the course chasing their foul balls- first tee one knocks it near the road right, the other within feet out-of-bounds left.  Not the experience we were looking for, but the weather was great and we had the pleasure of lunch in the R&A clubhouse.

Pat Mucci-

Anyone who budgets 2:30 and $525 to play Pebble Beach must be one rich moron.  ::)

My single experience at PB dates back to the early 1980s.  Second group off as a threesome, behind two guys we never saw again after the first hole.  GF around $100.  No caddies available, mandatory carts, maybe cart-path only (don't recall).  I guess that the management was so progressive that they adopted "Play It Forward" some 30 years before the USGA "thunk" it (not a big fan).  Directed by the starter to the one set of men's tees.  First hole, driver (persimmon), sand wedge (probably with a Hogan balata).  Second hole, something like 475 yards, par 5, nah, I go to the back tee box and play from there.  Ditto for the next four holes.  On the way to my ball on 6, a marshal comes to me to let me know I am being watched and to play from the tee markers.  I make my case (playing ability, not taking divots, not a soul around to hold up) to little avail, though he concedes the back of the second tee box.  Not a problem on 7 (only one tee box), but who wants to lay-up on 8 with a 5 iron?  So, not fearing the marshal or respecting the rationale behind his admonishment, I go to the back tee box and hit a good 3-wood to the left side of the fairway.  Before I get to my ball, there he is.  This time he tells me that if I hit from a back tee again, that I will be forcibly removed from the premises.  My playing companions, who were strangers to me until that morning and were happily playing from the tee markers, join the fray and the marshal threatens their expulsion as well.  Driver, wedge on 9, driver, sand wedge on 10, two normally longish, world-class holes reduced to the mundane with a great view.  Get to 18, the tees are set so the bay is parallel to the tee shot, the back tee is roped off for construction.  I look back and think - what is the worst they can do, arrest me? - so I hurry back to a small area near the water that had been left undisturbed and proceeded to duck hook my drive into the bay.  Re-teed from where the tees were set and made an easy 5 from there, 7 on my scorecard, and 80 for the round.  A very unsatisfying experience on a beautiful day with good company and on a wonderful golf course.  I did provide "feedback" to the pro shop people who were mostly unsympathetic and communicated an attitude which can be summarized as "this is our course, you play under our conditions, and if you are not happy, don't come back".  I haven't been, though I hear that the current owners and management are much more customer oriented, and the course looks absolutely fabulous.  I hope that Rich Goodale will give a full report, keeping the personal stuff to himself, of course.  
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 10:46:59 AM by Lou_Duran »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 10:41:23 AM »
We as animals love to chase things.  We do it in our cars everyday.  Pat played at that pace because he wanted to catch the greens crew.  I did the same thing this weekend on my velomobile.  I saw a group of riders in front of me and suddenly went from 16 mph to 30 with relatively the same effort.  It was the first time all summer I had been presented this opportunity and it was the quickest ride since entering the community.  I had grown tired of reading about all theses speed demons while feeling like I was stuck in the mud.  Speed equals the chase, it is that simple.

Yes you peddle this thing: http://pterovelo.com/

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 10:56:46 AM »
We as animals love to chase things.  We do it in our cars everyday.

How often I see that on the road, a guy is on my bumper as I am on the passing lane going around a long string of slower moving vehicles.  As soon as I find a spot and get over to let him go around, he slows down and traps me behind the next line of vehicles.

Ditto on the golf course.  You let a group that's been bumping you for a couple of holes and then they slow down where you're waiting for them.  Us "animals" are very interesting things.

I have generally attributed this phenomenon to narcissism, the me, me, me which becomes more noticeable as we are crowd.  Perhaps it is even more basic, primitive than that.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2013, 10:58:16 AM »
I guess there is only one thing to do.




Boycott Pebble Beach
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 10:58:52 AM »
I fail to understand how one can appreciate the strategies of a round if your sole goal is to play as fast as possible. I'm not promoting slow play but PB is not a crush it and wedge it course and even if it was, some time should be taken to appreciate the magnificent setting. Pat, I hope you and your group were able to at least admire the beauty. Maybe it's old hat for you but as I'm sure you know, you are not the typical golfer playing that course.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2013, 11:02:53 AM »
We as animals love to chase things.  We do it in our cars everyday.

How often I see that on the road, a guy is on my bumper as I am on the passing lane going around a long string of slower moving vehicles.  As soon as I find a spot and get over to let him go around, he slows down and traps me behind the next line of vehicles.

Ditto on the golf course.  You let a group that's been bumping you for a couple of holes and then they slow down where you're waiting for them.  Us "animals" are very interesting things.

I have generally attributed this phenomenon to narcissism, the me, me, me which becomes more noticeable as we are crowd.  Perhaps it is even more basic, primitive than that.

I remember a 60 minutes spot years ago where they clocked people from the time they arrived at their car to the time the vacated the spot.  If someone was waiting for their spot, people took over twice as long to get into their car and pull out of the spot as their counterparts who did not have anyone waiting.  
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 11:08:54 AM by Andrew Buck »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2013, 11:03:30 AM »
I had front row seats at the Met Opera last night, but I didn't attend when I found out they wouldn't accelerate the performance for me.
I paid a guy to videotape it so I could watch it in fast forward in 27 minutes tonight ;D ;D ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2013, 11:07:39 AM »
Sometimes not everyone knows it is a race.  This is an interesting video where a guy tries to prove that velomobiles aren't as fast as they have been made out to be because he catches them as they enjoy the scenery.  It also makes a guy feel better about being a golfing moron.

http://www.youtube.com/v/kYM75mn8WTI?version=3&start=467&end=820&autoplay=1

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2013, 11:42:02 AM »
Great story about the early 80's, Lou.

1983 was I think the year of the last of my 15-20 rounds at Pebble, and the first and only time that I payed over $100 to play there (and I was staying in the Lodge, thanks to one of my clients!).  The cost for round #1 in 1976 was $35, and me and my golfing buddy were charged $10 for a replay (to pay for the cart).  Those were the days......  As I have told countless others before, on that day in my first round I teed it up on 18 and my "buddy" commented something to the effect of "Looks like the same ball you teed off with on the first!"  He was correct and my next words were "Adois, pelota!" as the ball headed towards Hawaii or Japan.

I'm sure that Josie and I will spend our allotted time of 4:30 (including any R&R in the lee of the cliffs overlooking the 7th green), as we have nothing else planned for the day and will not want to upset our probable partners, Mr. and Mrs. Haversham from Bushwood CC......

All the best and hope to see you in the UK in 2014.

Rich "moron" Goodale
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2013, 11:42:08 AM »
Pat,

Sounds like you fellows were so far ahead of the trailing groups that you could have skipped past the grounds crew then gone back and played the holes you missed before anyone would have reached them, thereby finishing in 2:30.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2013, 11:51:27 AM »
Pat,

Sounds like you fellows were so far ahead of the trailing groups that you could have skipped past the grounds crew then gone back and played the holes you missed before anyone would have reached them, thereby finishing in 2:30.  ;)


lots of assumptions that the grounds crew was only on one hole......unlikely
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »
I'll play with a guy complaining at 3:20 any day over the guy who wants to death march around Pebble in 6 hours to "enjoy the view".  

Pat - one of my most memorable rounds was a 4-some around Garden City in 2:15....beat the hurricane up the coast in 2008 by 3 mins.  Perhaps you were the group ahead that we never caught.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2013, 12:28:04 PM »
I'll play with a guy complaining at 3:20 any day over the guy who wants to death march around Pebble in 6 hours to "enjoy the view".  

Pat - one of my most memorable rounds was a 4-some around Garden City in 2:15....beat the hurricane up the coast in 2008 by 3 mins.  Perhaps you were the group ahead that we never caught.

I will agree with that.  If the options are race around in 2:30 or death march for 6 hours, I don't need to read greens or enjoy the view.  

That said, unless you are beating a hurricane, it is really an exceptionally fast round of golf and if I know I have a 4:20 window for my next tee time, I'm not sure you really need to go into death march mode to stay at the 3:20 pace.  

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2013, 01:13:21 PM »
Pat & John,

Regarding the early morning maintenance and John's tongue in cheek "how dare they..." comment.

Where do you think the maintenance staff from Pebble comes from?

What do you think the average commute is? I know when I hired their top assistant his commute was more than an hour each way I believe and the maintenance guys may face longer travel times.

How do you think their staff retention would be if they set schedules to passify the miniscule number of folks who would wish/expect to play in 2 hours 30 minutes teeing off at 6:40?

Not saying they hadnled it all that well but 2 hours 30 minutes may not be practical given the constraints they likely face.

I speak from experience in this regard as we are constrained by transportation schedules down this way and your 2 hour 30 minute pace, while likely to be accommodated on a fully prepared course, is at the very limit of our capabilities on a day with a "regular tee sheet".  

Trust me you will not find a high end resort operator who is as vigilant about pace as I though I know better than to expect 3:30 from your typical guests... just not going to happen on a regualr basis and I am not going to sabotage the investoment of our owner to push pace of play to 3:30 or less even if I believe it would help the game. I am reducing our target round from 4:30 to about 4:10 or so (still have not set the exact number) but there is only so much you can do.

If you happen upon our little slice of heaven play in 4:30 only to come in complaining to my staff and demanding a refund to the point I get involved I would likely tell you the same as I have told others in the past, including the guy who informs me how fast he plays at his club on a Wednesday morning... "Every day here is a Saturday and this is not your private club, we are a resort faciltiy and do the best we can to accommodate a wide varierty of players".  

There is no silver bullet. Some do their part and get bashed by selfish, arrogant individuals who could care less about the guy they are playing with let alone the other 100 people on the golf course.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 02:05:25 PM by Greg Tallman »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2013, 01:30:33 PM »
Let them eat cake...... ;) ;D
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:32:55 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2013, 02:51:09 PM »
So at Garden City Golf Club you are warned not to take longer than 3:30 to complete your round but at Pebble as the first time of the day you should be able to get around as a 4 ball in 2:30? Private men only club on a flat site with a culture geared toward fast play versus a resort/public course with a fair amount of elevation change with a predominantly tourist clientele. I see the analogy and it must have made quite an impression on the staff. You should have told them that you had errands to do when you were done because that usually works. Oh that's right you did..... ;D ;) :o ::)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 04:24:23 PM by Tim Martin »

SteveOgulukian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2013, 03:01:17 PM »
So how many pictures did you guys take?  ;)

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