[jim_lewis]

For most of the past 4 decades, bent greens have been the choice of high-end clubs in the South. Bent greens carry a certain status that distinguishes the top tier courses from the lesser ones. As heat resistant strains of bent were developed the rush to bent increased. Now that trend seems to be headed in reverse. With the development of ultradwarfs that perform as well as bent and even better in Summer months, many well known clubs are switching from bent to Bermuda. Is it possible that the bent vs. bermuda status battle is in the process of flipping?

For several years now, courses at Myrtle Beach would advertise having the "best bent greens in the area", and charge higher fees because of it. I am told that some courses are now advertising, "Don't go there. They still have bent greens."

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Absolutely.  Once some of the top private clubs started to switch to the new ultradwarf Bermuda surfaces, the prestige of bentgrass began to fade.  And it was never a good choice on practical grounds, due to the fungicide budgets and soft conditions.

When I worked in Myrtle Beach, the running joke was that the club which advertised "the best bent greens on the Grand Strand" was always one of the brand new courses ... after 3 years of maintaining the bent, they were no longer worth bragging on.

[JC Jones]

I dont know that I've played on one of these new strains of Bermuda because I don't know anything about grass (well, some grass...).  Still, every time I play a course down here in the south I can't help but think of how much money it must cost to have fans, run the fans and deal with trying to keep the bent alive during the summer.

How long would it take for the savings in not having to protect the bent greens to equal the cost of putting in the new ultradwarf bermuda?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Back in the early 2000s, George Frye, then the superintendent at The Ocean Course, experimented with a bent green on the back (now the front) of the driving range.  In June and July, it was by far the best green in the region.  Then the heat of August came and it didn't survive.  We thought that the near-constant breeze would help it but it didn't.  The amount of salt in the air from the ocean I'm sure didn't help...

[Dan Herrmann]

Hell - the way the weather patterns are trending, Philly will be playing on bermuda in 15 years.

[John Kavanaugh]

Any option is better than green side fans. The greatest con ever foisted on the golfing public.

[Tim Bert]

In Western and Middle Tennessee people have been switching for years now whenever they have the time and budget to do so. Bent greens in Memphis always burned up. It was just a matter of time. My personal favorite was the course that had the peach of an idea to seed the entire course bent - tee to green. It was a fantastic 12 to 18 months with the best fairways oin town until they lost the entire course and had to grow something else. This was back in the early 90s I think.

[mike_beene]

Dallas may be a bad example because dry when compared to what I think of as the south, but here it seems the Bermuda greens are very grainy and slow to recover fron being punched,etc. The bent has to be kept soft in July and August,  it the rest of the year is a much smoother surface and can be kept very firm September to June.The bent has one big punch a year and is not good for a couple of weeks but if done during rainy season you hardly notice.A firm Bermuda would be much more fun to play in August from a chipping perspective but even as someone who grew up on common Bermuda I would much rather putt bent even in August.Perhaps I am missing something in this thought process?

[Charlie Gallagher]

   I will chime in with this thought. I had the privilege to play Shady Oaks in Forth Worth three years ago. It has fans, sometimes multiple combinations of them, around virtually all the greens. I'm no grass expert, but I would think that a conversion to Tiff Dwarf, Tiff Eagle, or Mini Verde, would provide fine putting surfaces, reduce maintenance costs, and allow the club to get rid of the fans.  I have played  a number of southern courses that have stellar greens with these sorts of surfaces. One that immediately comes to mind is Johns Island West, my favorite Fazio design. I think those greens are Tiff Eagle and they are plenty quick, and seem to have minimal grain.
  I would love to hear what others with more southern experience than I have think to expand knowledge on this topic.
      

[Jeff_Brauer]

I got to Texas in 1984, and my first few renovations were due to winter freeze damage.  That damage led to a mentality of "you baby it for three months in summer with bent, or lose it once every seven years to freeze."  It turned out to be a little off the mark.  For the life of me, I don't know why no one thought of green covers back then!

A turning point was a few hot summers, including one in 1991 or 2.  It was one of those 100 days over 100 years, and we have had about one of those a decade (or twice since) which showed the flaws in the bent theory, i.e., you are going to lose bent in summer as often as you lose Bermuda in winter, without the ability to protect with green covers.

On the senior tour in Austin one year, the pros were complaining about the greens, but lauded the putting green.  One wondered out loud why the super could keep that one.  Well, it turns out it was Bermuda (champions, I believe) and it sort of spurred the "If the tour pros didn't know the difference between bent and new Bermuda, how can we?"  

One of the few moments where the influence of tour pros was a good thing for golf maintenance!

[Lou_Duran]

I moved to Texas in 1978 having learned to play golf in Ohio.  Bermuda destroyed my putting stroke for a few years.  The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.  I am with Mike Beene on this one- put up with a couple months of soft conditions (and fans where air circulation is poor) vs. a bunch of grain and varying speeds for 12.  And I am not one who yearns or demands "perfect" Augusta National conditions.

[Tom_Doak]

The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.

Nothing is a panacea, but there is no way ultradwarf bermuda greens will require as much chemicals (sorry, non-organic Lou) as bentgrass greens do.

[BCrosby]

Jim -

I think you are right. The prestige-meter has swung to ultradwarfs. Particularly with the announcement that P'hurst will convert next summer. There is no reason to incur the expense and headache of bents when there is a Bermuda grass that performs vastly better in the summer and almost as well - even when dormant - in the winter.

Peachtree is the only course in ATL that can maintain bents in reasonably good condition all summer, but that is because of limited play and unlimited capital resources.

There is still nothing better than a good bent green in Boston or Westchester County in the summer. But the quality of those greens can't be approached with bents south of Washington DC. Ultradwarfs, however, will give them a run for their money.

Bob    

[Joe_Tucholski]

Looking at the timeline of Pinehurst #2 posted on the Pinehurst Resort blog it was interesting to see the trends in grasses.
http://pinehurstresort.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/pinehurst-no-2-a-timeline-of-greatness/

Here are the dates concerning grasses:
1913: Bermuda grasses slowly established on fairways
1929: "Winter" rye used on some tees
1932: Irrigation installed
1934: Bermuda greens used in experimental status on the first 3 holes
1935: Bermuda greens on the entire course (over seeded with Rye)
1972: Change to Bent greens and hardpan/wire grass replaced with grass
1979: Change back to Bermuda greens
1987: Change back go Bent and changed to USGA spec greens.  Fairways converted to Tiffway 419 II Bermuda.
1988: Wiregrass restored in natural areas
1997: USGA greens rebuilt and replaced with Penn G-2 bent grass
2011: Wiregrass and natural areas restored
2014: Switch to Ultra dwarf Bermuda after US Open

[Carl Nichols]

I believe Greg Holland posted recently that several players on tour loved the greens at Sedgefield CC in Greensboro, which hosted the Wyndham.  If I recall correctly, Sedgfield convereted to ultradward bermuda sometime in the last few years.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think as years go by and the hardiness of Ultradwafts continue to strengthen via University research and or Superintendent research, more and more courses south of the Mason-Dixon will convert. Other than the ultra private clubs, (Augusta, Peachtree) where the feather in the cap is greater than year round desire for the best possible surfaces, the trend will continue. Now that clubs like The Honors, East Lake and Atlanta Athletic Club have converted, I think more private courses will.
  The Dallas/Ft Worth area and the Hill country are different though. They heat is dry heat and in the hill country, they have a little more breeze. Not any of the high end private (Colonial, Dallas National, Vaquero, Shady Oaks, Preston Trail, Dallas Country Club) courses have taken the plunge. I think that they are a few years behind the ATL area. DFW's winters can also get much colder than other bent/UD areas. Too many nights below 30 degrees will take it's toll on UD.

[A.G._Crockett]

When I first read the title of the thread, I thought that "status" wasn't the right term.  But the more I think about it, the more I think status plays in because golfers in the South are coming quickly to realize that courses that have converted their greens will offer better conditions in the hot months when they play most of their golf; it becomes a marketing factor.

Looking at GA/NC/SC as a sample, most of the courses/clubs that either have large budgets or were in need of redoing their greens have already converted.  This includes not just the high-end clubs, but many daily fee courses and munis that are aimed at a much different segment of the market.

It is a matter of time until the courses that haven't converted yet do so, either because it's time for them to rehab their greens anyway, or because they are getting left behind in the market during the high-traffic part of the golf season.

[Bill_McBride]

Nobody has mentioned overseeding of ultra dwarf greens.  Does anybody still do this?   Transition twice a year was such a pain that we finally stopped a few years ago. 

What are the high end clubs that have converted doing?

[BCrosby]

This weekend I played our 18 with ultradwarf and our 18 with bent. The comparison was shocking. Even during a relatively mild summer in ATL, the bents were much slower, wetter, bumpier and thinning out in spots.

Our problem now is that no one wants to play the 18 with bent greens during the warm months. That is causing an imbalance in play between the two courses that has brought on a number of problems, no least of which are unhappy members who can't get a tee time on the ultrdwarf course.  

Bob

[Mark Pritchett]

Nobody has mentioned overseeding of ultra dwarf greens.  Does anybody still do this?   Transition twice a year was such a pain that we finally stopped a few years ago. 

What are the high end clubs that have converted doing?

I believe many clubs are painting/tinting the dormant greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Nobody has mentioned overseeding of ultra dwarf greens.  Does anybody still do this?   Transition twice a year was such a pain that we finally stopped a few years ago. 

What are the high end clubs that have converted doing?

I believe many clubs are painting/tinting the dormant greens.

PGA TOUR courses- Harbor Town, (Tifeagle) Redstone, (Miniverde) TPC SA (Champion) Bay Hill, (Emerald) Innisbrook, (Maybe Tifdwaft) and TPC Scottsdale.  Last I knew, Sea Island was overseeding greens. (Tifeagle) and read that Quail Hollow with lightly overseed greens like Harbor Town for future events.

All the courses in La Quinta where the Humana Event is played are seeded (PGA WEST)

Long Cove still overseeds, but there are a lot or variables that go into that decision.

[Mike Viscusi]

Hell - the way the weather patterns are trending, Philly will be playing on bermuda in 15 years.

Dan, they didn't do their putting surfaces, but Springfield CC in DelCo just converted their fairways and tees to Bermuda. They are touting themselves as the northern most course in the country to have Bermuda.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/08/12/sports/doc520854943fd69448723761.txt

[Lou_Duran]

The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.

Nothing is a panacea, but there is no way ultradwarf bermuda greens will require as much chemicals (sorry, non-organic Lou) as bentgrass greens do.

Dear Straw Man Tom,

No argument was made suggesting an advantage of bents over UDs on chemical use.  The UDs are being sold in this part of the country as being healthier year-round, cheaper to maintain, AND performing "like bent".  In my 20+ years playing on UDs (mainly TifEagle and Champion, Miniverde more recently), I have had ONE single experience (at Whispering Pines during a drought year) where the greens had minimal grain-pull and putted like well-maintained bent.

The more common experience in Texas is that clubs take to heart the second part of the sales pitch and go cheap on the maintenance.  The result is considerable grain, frequent periods of relatively slow healing from aeration, and a month or two in the winter when there is little to no leaf surface.  Fortunately, I can't think of a course in Texas with UDs that over-seed, though some apply an ugly bluish-green paint.

Best wishes,

Chemical Lou

BCrosby,

I played a relatively busy course in east Dallas yesterday with bent greens and they were very good.  The club has a second course considered to be a slightly weaker sister, but also with bent greens, and it too had quite a bit of play.

My home club has TifEagle greens and for the second time in the past two months, the supt. has deep/large tyned the greens and brushed in a bunch of sand.  It took six weeks for the greens to recover the last time, giving us two to three weeks of pretty good surfaces before doing it again.  Our greens are generally among the grainiest I see at this level.

As Tony Nysse notes, location (geography, climate) is a key, but even then other factors might be in play.  I've been told that the very upscale Escondido in Horseshoe Bay is going UD, while right across the street, the new Nicklaus private club chose bent.  I doubt that the Snob Factor is driving it.  Maybe people have weighed the pros and cons of each grass type and no large majority preference has been established- some like bent, others UDs.  And perhaps there is some merit to the micro-climate arguments I keep hearing about.        

[Anthony_Nysse]

The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.

Nothing is a panacea, but there is no way ultradwarf bermuda greens will require as much chemicals (sorry, non-organic Lou) as bentgrass greens do.

As Tony Nysse notes, location (geography, climate) is a key, but even then other factors might be in play.  I've been told that the very upscale Escondido in Horseshoe Bay is going UD, while right across the street, the new Nicklaus private club chose bent.  I doubt that the Snob Factor is driving it.  Maybe people have weighed the pros and cons of each grass type and no large majority preference has been established- some like bent, others UDs.  And perhaps there is some merit to the micro-climate arguments I keep hearing about.        

Lou,
  As that is what it is really coming down to for these clubs that have to choose one grass or the other-"When do you want to have the best putting surfaces with the least amount of disruptance to play?" Summer/Fall-UD or Winter/Spring? Each grass needs to be aerified and/or verticut/topdressed, but when do you want to deal with it? Bentgrasses are going to be a spring and fall aerification. Spring aerification to prepare for summer. Fall aerification to heal from summer. Or 2x aerification on a UD in the summer-May/June and August.  Really boils down to when each courses play is the most and what grass can accommodate it.

[Brent Hutto]

My home club has TifEagle greens and for the second time in the past two months, the supt. has deep/large tyned the greens and brushed in a bunch of sand.  It took six weeks for the greens to recover the last time, giving us two to three weeks of pretty good surfaces before doing it again.  Our greens are generally among the grainiest I see at this level.

Our club's greens here in South Carolina have Tif-something (probably TifEagle, our changeover from Common Bermuda was right before the newer strains started appearing) and our experience has been exactly the same. Except I wouldn't say we had two to three weeks of "pretty good". More like a couple weeks where a few specific greens approached "pretty good" while others might as well have been dormant. Then the latest punch/sand treatment followed by two more weeks of continual rain, clouds and cool temperatures with high R.H.

Our superintendent says that he has never seen a weather pattern like we've had this April-August and admits having absolutely no clue what to do, other than knowing the usual treatment will certainly not work. He also says the other supers in town are as puzzled as he is. I don't know what Bent greens would do under these conditions but with daily cloud cover, temps constrained to a narrow range of about 72-84F, dew points hovering the mid-70's and rain three or four times a week (for months at a stretch) Bermuda grass just won't grow. Once you punch and sand it, there's no healing, no re-growth. It just sits there and the weakest greens eventually develop that black fungus stuff.

Interestingly, one low-end public course in town still has Common Bermuda greens after all these years. The greens were grassed back in the late 70's, early 80's as the course was being built and are the same grass as the fairways (although honestly some of the fairways are more crabgrass than Bermuda with plenty of centipede invasions around the edges near houses). Those greens are apparently thriving in the same crappy weather that is wrecking all attempts at maintenance on the hybrid Bermuda courses around town. Now you want to talk about a combination of rock-hard firmness with truly awesome amounts of grain? These Common Bermuda push-up greens are your baby. But they are healthy as a Mule.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()