[Rob Collins]

Sounds like an awesome visit! Riley is a good friend of mine and you have certainly shown him some great courses in the last week...he's a lucky boy!

[Frank Giordano]

When in New England visiting Donald Ross courses in the late 1980s, in preparation for my book on the River Oaks Country Club in Houston, I asked for permission to play the Yale course, and was promptly invited.  Within a couple of those daunting holes I realized I'd not seen anything like it.  And when I was through playing the astonishing holes Tom Doak described, as well as the others with the rock outcroppings and the gigantic stone left in the fairway, I felt like I'd golfed on a course that was torn from the earth during the age of the dinosaurs.  One of the most exhilarating and surprisingly inventive courses anywhere, Yale will keep you up nights, dreaming of the holes and reliving for years those unimaginable golfing experiences.  Talk about a virtual liberal education!

[Peter Le]

Tim, I couldn't agree with you more about all the great work Scott Ramsey and his staff have done to get the course to where it is (namely the tree removal project and drainage improvements).  I feel the course plays better and better in my past four years at Yale.

[Tim Martin]

Tim, I couldn't agree with you more about all the great work Scott Ramsey and his staff have done to get the course to where it is (namely the tree removal project and drainage improvements).  I feel the course plays better and better in my past four years at Yale.

Peter-Scott Ramsay is a rock star. It will continue to get better as time marches on.

[Mike Sweeney]

Cool aerial from an old thread:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/yalegc/aerial.htm

[Mark Steffey]

good timing here.  playing next sunday. 
would have liked to make it this sunday with y'all but i got parent/child sunday.

[ward peyronnin]

and you didn't even fiinish. there was more to come. 18 is an absolute hoot

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Sadly, we can say that about most classic courses, although all the rain this summer made many of them play long.

Tom,

If you need additional time or help in answering my question, just let me know

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom Doak,

WHY wouldn't you build those holes/features, especially knowing how incredible they are ?

I was thinking the same thing. With your love for this wild stuff wouldn't you like to slip a little in here and there?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

WHY wouldn't you build those holes/features, especially knowing how incredible they are ?

One of the things that Colin Sheehan mentioned (somewhere in between his three birdies) was how the committee which oversaw the project wanted the course to be physically demanding and even emotionally demanding.  The course would be deemed "unwalkable" by typical American golfers, even though we walked it just fine.  And I mentioned to Riley a couple of times that I couldn't believe they let carts out on that terrain, because there is so much potential for accidents.  The combination of those two factors is probably the main thing that would make clients ask their architect to tone things down on holes like #2 and #9 and #10 and #18, even if the architect was imaginative enough to come up with the hole in question.

Also, as I mentioned for #1 and #9, someone would insist today that there were more forward tee options on the water holes, especially on the opening tee shot ... which would rob it of some of its stark drama.

I do remember when we finally arrived at the solution for the 18th at Pacific Dunes [by moving the tee back and the green back], that I compared it to the 18th at Yale when trying to convince Mr. Keiser that such a long finishing hole was ok.  However, if you think it's a round-killer now, you should have seen the original terrain!  The carry on the second shot was MUCH more rugged that what you know today ... it was up and over a 20-foot ridge, that we pulled down so you can play around the back of it.   That's the sort of change modern architects make, that C. B. Macdonald did not.

[Andrew Lewis]

Tom --

How fast were the greens running during your visit?  I have had the good fortune to play Yale numerous times and have always lamented that the greens could be even better (is that possible?) at a quicker speed.

It's unfortunate that you didn't have time to see the other 7 holes, as I'd be particularly interested in whether revisiting some of the more blase holes (11, 14, 16) would have tempered your praise, your take on holes that have had notable work done (steeping the back of the Eden green; returning the Alps green-fronting bunker to a massive pit) and whether you still liked the Redan as much as in the Guide.

Best, Andrew

[Jaeger Kovich]

I think one of the coolest things about the Yale course is how everyone is so overwhelmed by the HUGE scale, nobody ever notices how it tips out at just 6700 yards... While there is plenty of elevation to eat up any "shortcomings", when a golf course matches the scale of the property, the numbers on card dont seem to get noticed because the golf is so good.

Yale also has one of the best opening stretches. 1-4 are really among the best I've seen.

Greens #3 and 16 I believe are the only 2 that have been changed (I stand corrected, more have!). #3 was to close to the wetland between 3-4, I think there is a picture in The Evangelist of Golf that shows it was a blind double punchbowl!... extra bold... not sure what happened to #16, which is the weakest hole on the course.

Yale also had the highest construction budget recorded at the time it was build, tied with Lido at $500,000, due to all the rock blasting in the swamp! ... it can get a little soggy out there

[Jaeger Kovich]

Tom --

How fast were the greens running during your visit?  I have had the good fortune to play Yale numerous times and have always lamented that the greens could be even better (is that possible?) at a quicker speed.

It's unfortunate that you didn't have time to see the other 7 holes, as I'd be particularly interested in whether revisiting some of the more blase holes (11, 14, 16) would have tempered your praise, your take on holes that have had notable work done (steeping the back of the Eden green; returning the Alps green-fronting bunker to a massive pit) and whether you still liked the Redan as much as in the Guide.

Best, Andrew

What is it about the Knoll hole you dont like? I think its a great short-4, the ability to shape your tee shot can really gain you a ton of yards and the green has some of the best small contours on a MASSIVE course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Andrew, to each his own. In my opinion 11 used to be mundane but no longer is thanks to:
1) recapture of original green perimeter, and
2) equipment(!)

14 remains of great interest; 16 is mundane.

Jaeger, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 16th and 18th greens have been changed, some significantly some in relatively minor ways. AND very possibly the 9th: this Sunday we will discuss and debate the evidence.

[Matt Bosela]

Tom, it looks like I missed you by a day.

I played Yale yesterday for the first time and it is almost an overwhelming experience.  The scale of the property is almost without peer and as discussed here, the sheer audacity of some of the hole designs would never be considered if someone was building the course today.

The greens were great and rolling around 9 or so which is more than acceptable IMHO.

The fairways are in rough shape - heavy rains and then a subsequent heat wave burned out some of the grass but the playability is fine for the most part. I think they still need to cut a lot more trees, not for playability but to get needed morning sunlight and airflow on the turf. Playing at 8am yesterday gave me the chance to see all of the areas that weren't getting the morning sun and my playing partners indicate it's a work in progress.  I had the good fortune of playing with the Reverend Bill Lee, I believe an 11-time club champ at Yale and highly decorated amateur player at the state and national level.  What a character! A great thrill for me to learn about the nuances of the course from Bill.

Yale is an incredible golf course.

[Will Lozier]

Don't know if these pics have been seen on GCA.com but found them looking for photos of the original 3rd DP green.  

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/galleries/construction-gallery/Webpages/detail.np/detail-16.html

This older aerial shows a number of interesting features in original design: the huge (single) fronting bunker on #2, the single back bunker on #4 which looks to replicate the "road" much better than currently, the original front right bunkers on #6 & #7, topshot bunkers on #10, the huge single back bunker on Redan, two bunkers on the now bunkerless 14th, the original bunker configuration on #16, and a central fairway bunker on #18.  Fascinating!  

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/galleries/construction-gallery/Webpages/originals/615.jpg

Enjoy if you haven't seen these pics!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Andrew, to each his own. In my opinion 11 used to be mundane but no longer is thanks to:
1) recapture of original green perimeter, and
2) equipment(!)

14 remains of great interest; 16 is mundane.

Jaeger, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 16th and 18th greens have been changed, some significantly some in relatively minor ways. AND very possibly the 9th: this Sunday we will discuss and debate the evidence.

What Changed on #2, 5 and 18?

[Jud_T]

George Bahto, white courtesy phone....

[Bill Crane]

LOVE going to Yale, and it gets more interesting every time I go. It is really like playing golf in a living museum.   Not sure I would want to play it as my regular home club, but I am really enjoying playing the course a few times a year.  Will be there in a few weeks, and back for an O C event mid October.

SPRINGDALE in Princeton, NJ, is my home course and the home course for the Princeton Univ men and women’s teams. It was re-designed by Flynn in 1927.  It would be hard to imagine two courses more different other than they are both old:

SGC- 98 acres    Yale: located in 750 acre preserve! (not sure actual course acreage- Estimate about 170 acres ??)

SGC – shortish course 6,400 yards, small greens, very compact, rolling with modest hills

Yale – 6,750 from the back,  HUGE Greens, expansive terrain, hilly especially on the back nine.

SGC – located in downtown Princeton a small town, with PU undergrad, Grad and P U Theological Seminary buildings surrounding much of the course.

Yale – located in urban New Haven but the course is located in the woods outside of Town in a nature preserve, and there are no buildings around whatsoever.

SGC – originally laid out by Willie Dunn, Jr, additional nine added by Gerard Lambert and largely re-designed by William Flynn.

Yale – designed by Seth Raynor -  who attended PRINCETON !! although I don’t think he actually played golf, so he is not affected by any experiences at Springdale (formerly known as the Princeton Golf Club.) Yale Coach  Colin Sheehan and I have a fun time going back and forth about Raynor – he claims Raynor dropped out of Princeton and that does not reflect well on his Yale architecture.

I know the Princeton team is wary of Yale because of the huge home course advantage from knowing the course well.

Anyway, due to the scale, the authentic quirk, and the strength of the design, I love playing Yale, and it is really worth getting familiar with.  Every round I play I am more fascinated by the course, and have generally played better each time as well.  Managed to shoot a 78 last time, but not from the back tees.  You really need be able to hit high bunker shots, long running chips, and truly blind tee shots without stressing out.

The only real criticism I have is that the back nine is hard to walk, especially if you have one of their trolleys which are heavy and only get oiled once every five years.   Course conditioning has been decent last few years, although I know that have been an issue in the past.  The range condition is not pretty.

I highly recommend Yale to anyone with an interest in Golf Course Architecture.

Wm Flynnfan

[Frank Pont]

Tom Dunne had already told me to include it on my last trip to the NYC area, will need to do for sure on my next NYC trip.....

[Frank Pont]

I can't think of another course you could say that about.

Looking at Joe Bausch's pics, if you combine the quirky holes of De Pan and Royal Hague you get a long way......

[Noel Freeman]

Having been fortunate enough to spend 7 years as a member at Yale I must say the superlatives are many and manifold. And deserved.

Tom- It makes me wonder, if you havent been back in so long and then had what I take in your prose as a sense of wonder at what is still at Yale and what it took balls to design, what are we to make of the Confidential Guide where maybe a second visit or re-visit might jigger your rankings?  Ah, the new Guide hopefully will rectify that..Also, the 17th tee shot took some cajones because the ridge one hits over now has been lowered by several feet from what was once there.. It was severely imposing if one looks at the construction photos.

Even with the 18th in its current configuration, it can kill a round, I've hit iron off the back tee and then hit 3 wood, 4 iron and made birdie and once bombed a driver from the member tee onto the ridge after the fairway and had shot to make it in two and made 8... The hole is epic for a reason..

Frank P.--There is only one real cousin/brother to Royal Hague in the US (from my estimation) and that is Eastward Ho!.. Yale is rollicking but does not have the folds/creases in the land you see at the Ho! or Hague in my opinion..

The real expert on Yale is Dr. Geoff Childs who advocated a return to glory for Yale that is moving minutely but in the right direction.. The threads are all in the annals of this website..

[George_Bahto]

Noel: literally, seven feet was taken off the  hill fronting the 17th tee by the old super, many years ago. Too many players were banging balls into the hill, not clearing it.

3-green was moved more than one full green width to the left (blind, behind the hill) and for years many thought it was an Alps hole. Too many balls were hit into the pond when 3-green was first built. Remember this was a course built for students, faculty and such, not for a group of low handicappers. Many approaches were sliced into the pond. Also, the area where 3green "lived" was quite low.

Losing that great green was a travesty. It was one of Raynor's best green. Very few with this configuration were ever built. The most notable being the 6th at Creek.

Couple more issues:

16 green was originally in a low spot .......  I.e.: 30 yards shorter than today and a green-width to the left of where it is today. You can still see the remnants (dent impression) of the old green side bunkers. I showed this to David Patterson one rainy  afternoon.

The Knoll hole has always puzzled me for a couple of reasons. Most Knoll holes were hardly ever over 325 yards as per original at Scotscraig in Scotland and the classic, 13 Piping Rock. Also they usually (I'll go out on a limb and say"always") had a single rear plateau.  Since the original super really did a lot of free lancing on the course long ago. Perhaps, not understanding the design, I would suggest he may have cut off the plateau.

As is, that hole has absolutely no semblance to the Knoll hole concept.

I love that tee shot, even though it is out of character to the original concept.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

It's unfortunate that the legal climate in the U.S. has had such a dampening effect on dramatic, striking and/or quirky architecture and that the evolving culture in golf is resistant to layouts such as Yale.

It's also unfortunate that those who watch golf on TV never get to see the more dramatic, striking and/or quirky courses.
Seeing Yale, NGLA, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills and many other courses might just cause a shift in that culture that would result in a clamoring for more dramatic, striking and/or quirky courses.

I was hoping that the telecasts featuring Sebonack and NGLA would have a positive influence on the quest for unique architecture, but, I think viewers are more interested in the golfers than the golf courses.

I'd be curious as to how your interpretive CBM design, Old Macdonald, been received by golfers visiting Bandon ?

Years ago, I was playing NGLA with a large group of golfers who had never seen it.
Many didn't understand it, and some flat out didn't like it.
When I asked "why" ?  They said that they thought it was too radical.
That it presented shots that they were unfamiliar with.

My conclusion was that it took them out of their comfort zone.
They were used to bland, straight forward courses, without dramatic, striking and unique architecture..

My guess is that most golfers feel the same way, which is unfortunate.

Yet, there's a timelessness about Yale, NGLA and other classic courses.

Mike Keiser engaged you to create a modern day course with a foundation built on CBM's principles.

It would seem to me, that he would be a developer more apt to allow you to create a more dramatic, striking and unique course, containing features/holes, not disimilar to Yale's.

But, how many Mike Keiser's are there ?

[Frank Pont]

Has The Donald played Yale 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()