Shrinking courses as new paradigm?

[Jud_T]

Doug,

I'm not just focused on walking speed, that's just my moronic response to Pat's anal probing.  As for all the other stuff that takes place while walking,  would you say more "stuff" happens on a 6000 yard course or a 7000 yard course?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Isn't it about a mile to the first tee at Sand Hills ?

Would you say that Sand Hills is a poorly designed course with long walks from green to tee ?

PM


1. Long walks don't necessarily equate to bad design.  Sometimes, that is what has to be done to satisfy all concerned.  Can an archie be taken to task for adhering to the brief?  All projects have constraints and compromises - thats life.  That said, I have never seen long walks listed as a positive design element.  

2. I have never seen Sand Hills.  While I intensely dislike long walks, sometimes a design can overcome this shortcoming. For instance, I think Trump Aberdeen is still a great course even with its long walks.  With many folks raving about Sand Hills I can only surmise A) most people don't mind long walks as much as I do; and/or B) the course is so good people can overlook the long walks.  I hope to discover the joys of SH for myself one day.

3. I obviously place a much higher value on a course starting and finishing near the house than many very well respected archies do.  That does not imply there is a correct or incorrect way of designing, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if "it" were my course, I would at the very least see guys teeing off on #1 and finishing on #18 from a comfy seat in the house.  That to me is worth not having the very best 18 holes that a property can yield.  Just as short green to tee walks is more important to me than not having the best 18 holes the property will yield.  

Ciao

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

3. I obviously place a much higher value on a course starting and finishing near the house than many very well respected archies do.  That does not imply there is a correct or incorrect way of designing, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if "it" were my course, I would at the very least see guys teeing off on #1 and finishing on #18 from a comfy seat in the house.  That to me is worth not having the very best 18 holes that a property can yield.  Just as short green to tee walks is more important to me than not having the best 18 holes the property will yield.

Sean:

It's really weird how I can be totally behind your last point, but totally against your first.

To me, the space between the clubhouse and the golf course is not part of the golf.  There's a huge difference between green-to-tee walks that might interrupt your experience during play, and a long walk (or ride) after you've putted out on 18.

I also don't generally watch others putting out on #18, but at Dismal, you can do so on the new course if you want ... once I get the telescope installed at the fire pit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Isn't it about a mile to the first tee at Sand Hills ?

Would you say that Sand Hills is a poorly designed course with long walks from green to tee ?

PM


1. Long walks don't necessarily equate to bad design.  

How so ?
What well regarded designs had long green to tee walks on the day they opened ?

Sometimes, that is what has to be done to satisfy all concerned.  

How so ?
How can long green to tee walks satisfy all concerned, especially the golfer ?

Can an archie be taken to task for adhering to the brief?  

Since when does the GCA not route the golf course ?
If he developer created the brief, what does he need the GCA for ?

All projects have constraints and compromises - thats life.  

That said, I have never seen long walks listed as a positive design element.  

Ditto

2. I have never seen Sand Hills.  While I intensely dislike long walks, sometimes a design can overcome this shortcoming. For instance, I think Trump Aberdeen is still a great course even with its long walks.  With many folks raving about Sand Hills I can only surmise A) most people don't mind long walks as much as I do; and/or B) the course is so good people can overlook the long walks.  I hope to discover the joys of SH for myself one day.

3. I obviously place a much higher value on a course starting and finishing near the house than many very well respected archies do.  That does not imply there is a correct or incorrect way of designing, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if "it" were my course, I would at the very least see guys teeing off on #1 and finishing on #18 from a comfy seat in the house.  That to me is worth not having the very best 18 holes that a property can yield.  Just as short green to tee walks is more important to me than not having the best 18 holes the property will yield.  

Clubs with more than one course should get a bit of a pass.
Merion West might be a good example.

I often wondered if more than one course was initially envisioned for Sand Hills

Ciao

Ciao

[Sean_A]

3. I obviously place a much higher value on a course starting and finishing near the house than many very well respected archies do.  That does not imply there is a correct or incorrect way of designing, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if "it" were my course, I would at the very least see guys teeing off on #1 and finishing on #18 from a comfy seat in the house.  That to me is worth not having the very best 18 holes that a property can yield.  Just as short green to tee walks is more important to me than not having the best 18 holes the property will yield.

Sean:

It's really weird how I can be totally behind your last point, but totally against your first.

To me, the space between the clubhouse and the golf course is not part of the golf.  There's a huge difference between green-to-tee walks that might interrupt your experience during play, and a long walk (or ride) after you've putted out on 18.

I also don't generally watch others putting out on #18, but at Dismal, you can do so on the new course if you want ... once I get the telescope installed at the fire pit.

Tom

My reasoning is any archie worth a damn should be able to build very good holes starting/finishing near a clubhouse.  There are always exceptions of course (two course clubs), but I believe that it should be an achievable goal.  I think you under-estimate the value of golf being viewed from the house.  Most golfers I know peak at the first tee and last green quite a bit while drinking. Most golfers I know try to get a seat where the first and last can be viewed.  I think this is especially the case at local private clubs where folks know each other.  The house is called the 19th for a reason.  One of the biggest let downs I can think of is having to trudge to the house after finishing.  

PM

1. Sometimes the property demands longer walks - large dunes are a cause for this.  Sometimes a developer/owner wants views from tees which demand longer walks. Sometimes a property is too hilly which will yield too many blind shots if tees are kept close to greens much of the time.  Sometimes safety concerns demand it.  There are always exceptions to the rule, but I think archies can take it too far.  

2. See #1.

3. See #1.

I agree that clubs with more than one course should get a pass.  I think Merion does it about as good as it gets for a city club with a separate house & parking lot.  

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

The problem with your logic is that you introduce two layers of compromise.  Owners typically take some of the best property for the house for starters.  Now you insist a course starts and stops exactly there.  I would argue it's a lot easier to build a nice house almost anywhere than 1 or 2 returning loops to the proverbial "house on the hill".  Of course it's nice to sit and have a cocktail and watch guys coming in, but so are ocean views and regular bowel movements, neither of which have much to do with golf (ok, regularity is somewhat important when walking 36)...

[Sean_A]

Jud

The thing is, you don't want to build a nice house anywhere.  You want to build it where it makes sense.  Sort of like making sure your house is next to your garden - perfectly logical - tee hee.

Remember, this idea of building a course separate from the house is quite modern.  Why, because of carts.  Its difficult to profess walking is important when all areas of the property are not easily accessible on foot.  There is an inherent compromise made on most properties if walking is the goal.  

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Sean. It isn't like a great course becomes a mediocre one just because the 1st tee and 18th green are each 1/4 mile from the clubhouse. But I sure think sitting the clubhouse and feeling like you are AT the golf course instead of NEAR the golf course is a plus. It's a potential item of compromise, no doubt. But please, architects, don't treat it like it's of zero value. To some of us it's a deal, if not a huge deal.

[Jud_T]

So what's the amount of tradeoff you guys are willing to make in terms of course quality in order to have a perfectly returning loop or 2 as opposed to a longer walk/shuttle to or from #1 and/or #18?  Are you willing to sacrifice 1 Doak point?  2, 3?  Personally I'll take the best course the land can possibly offer with a cooler and a couple folding chairs by #18...

[Sean_A]

So what's the amount of tradeoff you guys are willing to make in terms of course quality in order to have a perfectly returning loop or 2 as opposed to a longer walk/shuttle to or from #1 and/or #18?  Are you willing to sacrifice 1 Doak point?  2, 3?  Personally I'll take the best course the land can possibly offer with a cooler and a couple folding chairs by #18...

Jeepers now an archie can't build a very good hole to a prescribed piece of land?  If an archie can't do that I wouldn't hire hire him.  1 Doak point???  I doubt that is often the trade-off.  I find it extremely difficult to believe that a guy like Doak can't build an excellent finisher in front of a house without sacrificing anything close to a point.  My bet is he could do it and hardly anybody would know or even question the move.  Its one thing for it to be impossible to get the finisher by the house and another thing entirely to say the alternative is very slightly better.  Perhaps I have more faith in archie's abilities than I should, but I doubt it.

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

The looping 9s and proximity to the clubhouse is only an issue for members. Someone who visits, say, Sand Hills just once will not take points off due to clubhouse location. Just as I wouldn't mind driving 17 miles of dirt road to get to Dismal River to play it as a guest. However, both considerations would feature in my mind, if I were to decide whether to become a member there and/or play regularly.

For that reason when rating a course I would be reluctant to consider anything outside tee #1 and green #18, except in the case of an extreme outlier. Long walks between #1 and #18 would be considered, of course.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

The looping 9s and proximity to the clubhouse is only an issue for members. Someone who visits, say, Sand Hills just once will not take points off due to clubhouse location. Just as I wouldn't mind driving 17 miles of dirt road to get to Dismal River to play it as a guest. However, both considerations would feature in my mind, if I were to decide whether to become a member there and/or play regularly.

For that reason when rating a course I would be reluctant to consider anything outside tee #1 and green #18, except in the case of an extreme outlier. Long walks between #1 and #18 would be considered, of course.

Ulrich

I wouldn't say points are deducted unless the walking is heavy handed throughout the day, but starting and finishing by the house certainly feels proper to me.  It all adds into the experience.  I am not nearly well enough versed in course design to think my views would be based solely on the quality of the design - that takes intimate knowledge of the project.  

As I say, nearly all folks who say it doesn't matter likely wouldn't have a clue.  This is an archie deal, perhaps on a vanity trip because he is one of the few that would know what the options were!  I mean, unless the finisher is well off the quality of most of the other holes, do folks look around and say WTF did I finish in front of the house for?  Look at that empty land 500 yards over there!  I can't see that situation arising too often.  Besides, the way folks rip into archies around here it may just be that the alternative in front of the house is better!  

Ciao