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David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Donald Ross designed The Sagamore, which opened for business in 1928  The site on the hills/mountains ringing the Lake George is a non-trivial site.  It's the Adirondacks.  There are big rocks, swamps, and some sharp elevation changes on a property that is comparatively subdued compared to the surrounding terrain.

The routing makes use of the terrain as you might expect: greens are perched on slopes to create bad sides; doglegs play into and against the slope; there's a hogback fairway; there are two seriously blind tee shots over prominent ridges.  Remarkably, the green-to-tee transitions are wonderfully short.  As a resort course those transitions belie the need for carts, which are de rigeur for a resort course, but actually create a number of awkward "carry your driver to the green" moments.

What I think is most interesting at The Sagamore is how Ross designed the greens, and in particular, used mounds on the green periphery as an essential element to introduce interior contours, specifically ridges, into the greens.  This approach is so common on the course, in part I believe because few green sites are sufficient as the ground lies.

Here are two shots of the Par-3 8th  The Ross designs call for two plateaus to come into the green from mounds on the right and back.  The mounds anchor the features that then blend into the green surface as the dominant green-features:

First, from the tee:


And from behind the tee:


From the tee the mounding obscures the green surface, and creates the unplanned bounce for any shot that doesn't reach the green surface.  Hopefully you can get a sense of the mounding in size, too, they have walking scale but are neither towering nor inconsequential.

From behind the green, and you may have to take my word for it, the green undulations extend directly from the mounds into the green interior, and well in, at that.  In this case, the flag was placed at the end of a 3-5 channel between two plateaus that came from the mounds in the left and right foreground of the photo from behind the green.  FIguring out those plateaus is the challenge on this green.

Next up the Sagamore 4th.  I particularly like this hole as an example of solid architecture.  The hole runs along the East property boundary in what is basically a field.  This green is not overly interesting, but Ross added a mound in the middle rear of the green, and extended it from it a ridge that bisects the green through about half of the green's length:



Finally from my photo collection is the Sagamore 6th. THe green as seen from about 100 yards presents a receptive view, with two mounds defined back left and right:



From greenside left, the mounds and their transitions into the green become more clear.  Back left, back right, and the smaller green from right extend as ridges into the green surface, effectively defining the challenge for any flag placed near them, but also defining the challenge for any ball that lands on the wrong/long side of the green.



While my photos don't show this in great additional detail on the rest of the course, holes where mounds are extended into the green in a prominent way include: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 14, 16, 17, and 18.  I was on the wrong side on 11 and 18, and those spines knifing into the green really puzzle play.

The big question to me from this is whether this approach to manufacturing interest in a green is a Ross trait, a golden age trait, an architect 101 skill, or just a local adaptation? 
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
David:

Ross did all kinds of greens ... plateaus with external contours coming in, crowned plateaus with everything draining away, greens laying right on the ground, punchbowls, you name it.  If you are looking for a Ross course which has a great mix of different greens, I thought the Kahkwa Club in Erie, PA was terrific.

There are a few architects (old school and modern) who believe that any green contour should derive from a bigger feature outside the green, so that its influence can be discerned easily from the fairway.  Mark Parsinen (who developed Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart) told me he is a big fan of that.  Jim Engh is another, I think.  Personally, I'm fine with some / many green contours that you have to learn from experience.

I would guess that the more an architect likes to work from drawings, the more likely he is to think this way about greens.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
David

Given that the green pads are necessarily raised due to the lie of the land, do you think the knobs help frame the greens?  I see Colt did this exact thing on any number of his greens when they were built up. Below is one example.   


I also have a question concerning the raised greens.  Is there generally one side which is more or less level with the surrounding terrain, thus creating a situation where the other threes sides are pushed up to make a reasonably flat green?

Ciao


New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

Regarding framing, to my mind the notable thing about the mounds and knobs were that they generally if not largely were carried into the green.  To me, that goes beyond framing and gets more to what Tom described as way to integrate or rationalize internal features from a "source" off the green.  To that extent that mounding off the green isn't integrated, as in the central mound in your Colt photo I'd agree that that is a framing construct.  The Sagamore didn't have much of that.

While the photos above show holes largely at grade, there are many at The Sagamore built into the grade that have severe drop offs.  These greens are clearly built up to provide an acceptable putting service where the ground would not otherwise do so.  1,4,6,9,13,14,15,18 are pretty much at grade, or have modest pushup features.  2,3,11,12,16 all have severe drops on the downhill sides of the greens.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

Regarding framing, to my mind the notable thing about the mounds and knobs were that they generally if not largely were carried into the green.  To me, that goes beyond framing and gets more to what Tom described as way to integrate or rationalize internal features from a "source" off the green.  To that extent that mounding off the green isn't integrated, as in the central mound in your Colt photo I'd agree that that is a framing construct.  The Sagamore didn't have much of that.

While the photos above show holes largely at grade, there are many at The Sagamore built into the grade that have severe drop offs.  These greens are clearly built up to provide an acceptable putting service where the ground would not otherwise do so.  1,4,6,9,13,14,15,18 are pretty much at grade, or have modest pushup features.  2,3,11,12,16 all have severe drops on the downhill sides of the greens.

Dave


I think Colt's knobs also tie into contouring, buts its usually quite subtle.  Ross certainly created more bold greens than Colt did and it would be interesting to know why that is the case.  I also know Colt was actively against blindness and raised greens were a way to create visual stimuli, but sometimes it also causes visibility issues for parts of the green.  I long thought that Ross was much the same in this regard.  Meaning required blindness was to be tolerated as a necessary compromise.  Which, if truth be told, really produces just about the right number of blind shots in any given round.   

I asked about the raised greens because I often think of Beau Desert in this case.  Fowler managed to create practically every green approachable from the ground and built up the wings an rears to create a reasonable surface that wasn't too crazy.  There is the odd bit of framing, but usually Fowler left a feeling of infinity with ill-defined corners of the greens.  Its a completely different approach, but Fowler didn't seem to mind cranking contours thru the greens which don't seem to emanate from anywhere - like springs popping here and there.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

David,

I wonder if Ross's use of greenside mounds wasn't to help him with structuring his greenside bunkering, or to add an element to assist in the defining/framing of the green from the DZ

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