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Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Interesting on the 2nd.  I know I've played holes with OB that tight before, but I didn't know that was a restoration effort. 

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick...when you say ditto #14...they always planned to tee off from the putting green?

I assume you mean the angle that the hole played and the mow lines of the fairway?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 04:33:57 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tough call.

Rees seems to leave a bigger footprint, which I don't particularly like, but I think the (insidious) approach of Davis is more likely to be lasting. I'd love to see Bogey's "Anti-garanimals" approach, but then maybe Bogey would be the new Davis and I'd have to dislike him, too.

If you held a gun to my head, I'd say I'd rather Rees do his thing. But I'd prefer neither do his thing, and that memberships and the USGA simply learn to accept the scores that come and that low score still wins.

No changes - no fans - no different mowing - let the course stand on its own merits.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of them is an Amateur one is a Professional.

PM is correct, the club has to consent.

I would choose the Professional every time.

Lester

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why pick on Rees and not Fazio?  Both have left their footprints all over classic courses. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

Cole Porter was once asked who interpreted/sang his songs the best. He said Fred Astaire, which surprised the interviewer. Astaire had a decent and pleasant enough voice, but given that titans such as Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald etc etc had done great/definitive versions of Porter tunes, it was hard to understand Porter's preference for Astaire. And so he explained that it was because Astaire simply sang the songs as they were written, and exactly as Porter had intended them to be sung.

Every wonderful course deserves a Fred Astaire. Jones and Davis and Fazio all know what they are doing, but we're just splitting hairs trying to compare/rank them. None of them is an Astaire.

Peter

Patrick_Mucci


Patrick...when you say ditto #14...they always planned to tee off from the putting green?

MWP,

What part of "close to the road" didn't you understand.
If I didn't know better I'd think you were lobbying for "moron" status.


I assume you mean the angle that the hole played and the mow lines of the fairway?

No, I meant that # 14 and # 15 originally played close to the road, like # 2.'


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cole Porter was once asked who interpreted/sang his songs the best. He said Fred Astaire, which surprised the interviewer. Astaire had a decent and pleasant enough voice, but given that titans such as Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald etc etc had done great/definitive versions of Porter tunes, it was hard to understand Porter's preference for Astaire. And so he explained that it was because Astaire simply sang the songs as they were written, and exactly as Porter had intended them to be sung.

Every wonderful course deserves a Fred Astaire. Jones and Davis and Fazio all know what they are doing, but we're just splitting hairs trying to compare/rank them. None of them is an Astaire.

Peter

So now I'm convinced I would rather have Miles Davis do the work.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cole Porter was once asked who interpreted/sang his songs the best. He said Fred Astaire, which surprised the interviewer. Astaire had a decent and pleasant enough voice, but given that titans such as Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald etc etc had done great/definitive versions of Porter tunes, it was hard to understand Porter's preference for Astaire. And so he explained that it was because Astaire simply sang the songs as they were written, and exactly as Porter had intended them to be sung.


I read that Cole Porter interview several years ago. I went out the next day and bought a CD of Astaire singng Porter and others, mosttaken from movie sound tracks. Turned out Cole Porter was right about Astaire.

I had not thought of parallels with gca, but they are apt. Good stuff.

Bob

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
I go with Rees cause I don't have a clue who mike Davis is, let alone his pedigree or qualifications.

Hawtree
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Besides mixing up tee boxes, what else could be done at Pinehurst next year without implying publicly that C&C got it wrong?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cole Porter was once asked who interpreted/sang his songs the best. He said Fred Astaire, which surprised the interviewer. Astaire had a decent and pleasant enough voice, but given that titans such as Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald etc etc had done great/definitive versions of Porter tunes, it was hard to understand Porter's preference for Astaire. And so he explained that it was because Astaire simply sang the songs as they were written, and exactly as Porter had intended them to be sung.

Every wonderful course deserves a Fred Astaire. Jones and Davis and Fazio all know what they are doing, but we're just splitting hairs trying to compare/rank them. None of them is an Astaire.

Peter


Am I wrong to think the golf equivalent would be the player that plays a course most like what the architect intended and with the best results? The analysis would not be a direct consideration of their score, but rather it would look at the players approach to each hole and their skill at addressing each challenge efficiently.

It's called "golfing your ball" in my world. Bubba Watson, Dustin Johnson and the other mega bombers don't do it even though for their own purposes they're obviously extremely effective at playing golf.

You look for guys that can cut the ball against a right-to-left wind to hold it on a firm green. When they miss a green they're usually in a good spot. They knock it down and skip it up to back tier hole locations...isn't that interpreting the intent with more humility?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cole Porter was once asked who interpreted/sang his songs the best. He said Fred Astaire, which surprised the interviewer. Astaire had a decent and pleasant enough voice, but given that titans such as Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald etc etc had done great/definitive versions of Porter tunes, it was hard to understand Porter's preference for Astaire. And so he explained that it was because Astaire simply sang the songs as they were written, and exactly as Porter had intended them to be sung.

Every wonderful course deserves a Fred Astaire. Jones and Davis and Fazio all know what they are doing, but we're just splitting hairs trying to compare/rank them. None of them is an Astaire.

Peter


Am I wrong to think the golf equivalent would be the player that plays a course most like what the architect intended and with the best results? The analysis would not be a direct consideration of their score, but rather it would look at the players approach to each hole and their skill at addressing each challenge efficiently.

It's called "golfing your ball" in my world. Bubba Watson, Dustin Johnson and the other mega bombers don't do it even though for their own purposes they're obviously extremely effective at playing golf.

You look for guys that can cut the ball against a right-to-left wind to hold it on a firm green. When they miss a green they're usually in a good spot. They knock it down and skip it up to back tier hole locations...isn't that interpreting the intent with more humility?

Jim,
Bubba may be a bomber, but he's also an accomplished shotmaker who's not afraid to play the shots you describe in competition.
Haven't seen him in action in the UK, but he certainly works the ball in the wind as you describe and plays low spin shots to back pins in the many rounds I've watched him play at Augusta
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rhetorical thread ??

With loads of answers.

That " Hawtree " was one of the answers confirms the rhetorical nature.   :D


Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I guess I've heard that Jeff, and I believe it...but that fact that he hits 40 yard hooks and slices as opposed to the 10 yard movement that's more direct and honest is probably why I think his golf is a bit like these music stars that have to put their own spin on the national anthem every chance they get.

No issue with the effectiveness and overall quality just playing off Peter's Cole Porter Fred Astair reference.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just a hunch, but I suspect most greenkeepers are the Fred Astaire's in golf. They are happy to tread lightly and focus on presenting the course in it's best possible mode without forcing their own ideas on the course.

And this is most certainly meant as a compliment.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cole Porter was once asked who interpreted/sang his songs the best. He said Fred Astaire, which surprised the interviewer. Astaire had a decent and pleasant enough voice, but given that titans such as Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald etc etc had done great/definitive versions of Porter tunes, it was hard to understand Porter's preference for Astaire. And so he explained that it was because Astaire simply sang the songs as they were written, and exactly as Porter had intended them to be sung.

Every wonderful course deserves a Fred Astaire. Jones and Davis and Fazio all know what they are doing, but we're just splitting hairs trying to compare/rank them. None of them is an Astaire.

Peter


Am I wrong to think the golf equivalent would be the player that plays a course most like what the architect intended and with the best results? The analysis would not be a direct consideration of their score, but rather it would look at the players approach to each hole and their skill at addressing each challenge efficiently.

It's called "golfing your ball" in my world. Bubba Watson, Dustin Johnson and the other mega bombers don't do it even though for their own purposes they're obviously extremely effective at playing golf.

You look for guys that can cut the ball against a right-to-left wind to hold it on a firm green. When they miss a green they're usually in a good spot. They knock it down and skip it up to back tier hole locations...isn't that interpreting the intent with more humility?

Jim,
Bubba may be a bomber, but he's also an accomplished shotmaker who's not afraid to play the shots you describe in competition.
Haven't seen him in action in the UK, but he certainly works the ball in the wind as you describe and plays low spin shots to back pins in the many rounds I've watched him play at Augusta

Bubba hit the most amazing and creative shot that I saw at Muirfield.  2nd or 3rd round he drove down the right to a hole where the pin was tucked in hard and short to the right on a green sloping right to left (can't remember the hole number).  He hit a low sweeping topspin hook that landed 50 yards or so short of the grenn and climbed the reverse camber until until ending up 15 feet or so past the pin.  Kind of an Augusta 2012 playoff shot without the trees and the pine straw.....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter;  As you know, I am always interested in your golf/jazz analogies.  However, I think this one misses the mark.  I understand that Cole Porter preferred that his songs be sung "straight" as written.  As a jazz fan do you agree?  Do you prefer Astaire to Ella, Sarah, Johnny Hartman, Sinatra etc?  So it is possible that the author of a song may not, in the listeners' opinion, be the best judge of how a song should be presented.  Similarly, in some circumstances, an outsider can see flaws in a design that are hidden from the architect.  But an additional difference is that regardless of how a jazz singer interprets a Porter song, the sheet music is unchanged and the next artist can return and interpret it differently or sing it "straight".  Thus the singer is more like the golfer, not the revising architect.  Bubba Watson "sees" different shots when he plays a course than Luke Donald.  Hogan saw the course differently than Snead.  But after they play, the course (song) remains as designed (written).  If after a Charley Parker solo, someone transcribed his work (Supersax) and destroyed all existing sheet music, that would be a closer analogy to the revising architect.  Incidentally, I believe most of Davis' work is easily restored; not so Rees.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 05:46:48 PM by SL_Solow »

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thank you, this thread just induced me to dust off my college era Golden Age vinyl of the first great quintet featuring Miles Davis with a. member of the Philly school on drums, Joe Jones.  And all this talk of footprints means Giant Steps from the first quintets great sax player is on deck followed by the song "Footprints" from the 2nd great quintet written by that groups sax player.  What a bitches brew this site stirs up sometimes.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dan;  Of course Philly Joe Jones was called that to differentiate him from the great Basie drummer, Jo Jones who popularized keeping time on the high hat cymbal.  Not a lot better than early Miles playing a ballad.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rich,

That shot, to me, is the equivalent of Neon Dieon Sanders high-stepping from the 40 yard line.

He could and noone else could!

Peter Pallotta

Shelly, Jim -

yes, I think using the analogy in regards to golfers/players (as you both suggest) works very nicely; but I still think it works the way I used it as well. I do indeed love jazz, and while 'contempt' is too strong a word to describe how the great jazz men felt about their 'source material' (i.e. the popular songs of the day, including Cole Porter tunes) I think they did see those tunes mostly/merely as a series/progression of chords that allowed them a solid base from which to leap into the creative and their own creativity, i.e. a structure through which/out of which they could improvise and share of themselves and their musical ideas freely. (I can't even count the number of new and 'uncredited' solos/riffs/songs the jazz men happily based on the "I've Got Rhythm" changes, and Bird's famous and influential "Ornithology" is of course "How High the Moon".)  Now, I hope that folks like Mike Davies and Rees Jones have more respect for great architecture/courses than did the jazz men their source material; in fact, I'm almost certain that both men would say they do have great respect for that architecture and that in no way are they using what exists on the ground as a structure for their own creativity/design ideas.  They'd say instead, perhaps, that they were 'preserving' and 'updating' and 'maintaining the relevance' of that great architecture. And that's where Cole Porter and Fred Astaire come in. Imagine Cole Porter (or Donald Ross) deciding that the first 9 beats/holes of their song/course would be 3 quarter notes, 2 half notes, and 8 eighth notes (please just imagine the equivalent set of par 4s, 5s, and 3s for Ross' first nine holes). Well, there'd be a reason they 'designed' their song/course that way, probably many very good reasons musically/architecturally (even setting aside personal tastes and style). Now, even though I do appreciate greatly Frank Sinatra's and Charlie Parker's musicality and Mike Davies' understanding of championship golf, what rationale do they have (other than, to put it bluntly, "I know better") to re-imagine those first nine beats as, say, 3 half notes, 4 eighth notes, and 2 quarter notes? Yes, Frank and Bird can make it work, and make it work in a way that a Cole Porter never envisioned -- but is the equivalent process appropriate for Mike Davis and his presumed respect for the original architecture? If Donald Ross simply and clearly didn't intend for, say, a short Par 4 to follow a long par 3, what rationale/justification does a Mike Davis or Rees Jones have for changing/setting up a golf hole in a way Ross didn't intend? I can't think of any. Will their changes/decisions 'work'? Yes, maybe -- at best, the way Sinatra's or Bird's choices 'work'. But again, I presume that Davis/Jones sees the original architecture much differently than Bird saw the original tune/changes -- and if they do, they really need to ask themselves what they think they're doing. Unlike either of those men, Fred Astaire put himself 'aside' and simply served the song, i.e. allowed Cole Porter's talent and taste to shine clear and true, unfettered by any of Fred's own 'ideas'.

Peter    

PS - Joe, good one, and thanks for the laugh. Best to you and yours
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:07:06 PM by PPallotta »

Garland Bayley

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I am befuddled by this thread.  This is like deciding which mass murderer in history should be nominated for sainthood.

Carl, JakaB started the thread. No reason to be befuddled.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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