[Terry Lavin]

Not trying to be provocative here, but this Open reminded me of the US Open at Torrey Pines. Both were unforgettable, but neither course seemed to have more than a few iconic and memorable holes. All weekend as I watched, I couldn't get excited about any individual holes, but the golf was quite compelling. I had a similar reaction to the US Open at TP. Phenomenal event on a difficult but blasé course. I've played Torrey and was underwhelmed but have never played Muirfield. What am I missing?  Danger everywhere, but not much in the way of unforgettable golf holes.

[Mark Pearce]

Terry,

It's true.  The only memorable holes at Muirfield are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18.  The others are entirely forgettable.

Seriously, Muirfield is the only course I have ever played where, after my first round I have remembered every hole clearly.  TV does blur the individuality of some holes but the fact is the course has 18 memorable holes.  They may lack the  dramatic features that make for great TV but also one dimensional golf but to the player each hole is memorable.

[Tom_Doak]

Terry:

I think the only really unforgettable holes at Muirfield are 8, 9, 13 and 17.  But four is a pretty good number.  I was not able to watch much of the TV coverage at all -- I was playing in a member-guest at the exact times for the final two rounds -- but it is tough for TV to show how narrow and severe a green like 13 really is.

[Joel_Stewart]

I disagree.  I watched the tournament very closely in looking at the details and nuances of the courses.  I thought it was interesting and I would be love to play the course.

For example,  I thought the par 3 13th hole was a really great hole and the collar around the 17th was very well done.  

The few times the camera showed players hitting into or over blind areas I became more interested and appreciated the architecture.

The bunkers are uniquely shaped and positioned well.

The hay was at times playable yet some times punishing.

The par 5's offer great opportunities and also unique trouble.

The 18th was a great finishing hole.

The clubhouse is all world.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Not trying to be provocative here, but this Open reminded me of the US Open at Torrey Pines. Both were unforgettable, but neither course seemed to have more than a few iconic and memorable holes. All weekend as I watched, I couldn't get excited about any individual holes, but the golf was quite compelling. I had a similar reaction to the US Open at TP. Phenomenal event on a difficult but blasé course. I've played Torrey and was underwhelmed but have never played Muirfield. What am I missing?  Danger everywhere, but not much in the way of unforgettable golf holes.

Terry, I have played both Torrey and Muirfield.  The later three times, the last being almost ten years ago. I remembered every hole.  I liked Torrey.  The terrain and scenery help make the course enjoyable.  I don't need to go back.  Muirfield is exceptional.  The terrain is relatively flat and the dunes aren't as large as, say, Birkdale, but the course is strong hole after hole.  The first time I played it my wife was along and after the round we both said, "Let's do it again."  Of course, we couldn't.  The bunkering is brilliant.  You really have to think and execute.  You need to know when to take a chance and when to play it safe. I got it in under 80 on my first try and felt as good about that round as almost any I had played.
I agree that it may not have one hole that really knocks your socks off but there are no weak sisters out there.  Every hole has its own demands, its own excitement, and its own way to glory. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

HW Wind called Muirfield "the most orthodox" of rota links. Perhaps that hints at the discontent of people like Terry? (Personally, I'd like to play it.)

[Tom_Doak]

The other great thing about Muirfield is the artisanship of the bunkers.  At more and more courses, the pot bunkers are devolving into circles and ovals, while most of the modern links get the shapes a bit too funky.  Muirfield's are just beautifully done ... some deep, some shallow, some trenches, never repetitive.

Trust me, it is very difficult to do well, and they do it better than anyone.  [And they keep doing it better, because they have to be rebuilt every 3-5 years.]

The main objection to the course [Herb Wind and others] is that the fairways aren't nearly as undulating as at Troon or St. Andrews or Royal St. George's or many other links ... you don't have the odd bounces out of the fairway off a drive, and you don't have the awkward stances for your iron shots, except on rare occasions.

[Mark Chaplin]

Terry - what you are missing is playing Muirfield, it's a great course. I watch lots of cooking programmes and whilst the food looks great I cannot smell and taste it. There is no difference in watching golf on the TV and knowing how the course plays.

[Adam Clayman]

The humps and bumps looked delicious.

Terry, You'd love it. No women.

[Terry Lavin]

Terry:

I think the only really unforgettable holes at Muirfield are 8, 9, 13 and 17.  But four is a pretty good number.  I was not able to watch much of the TV coverage at all -- I was playing in a member-guest at the exact times for the final two rounds -- but it is tough for TV to show how narrow and severe a green like 13 really is.

This is interesting to me. From my viewing of the championship, I found three or four unforgettable holes. I don't mean to insult the course or its many fans. It certainly provides plenty of interest and challenge but there's a certain indistinguishable feel to the course that leaves me wanting. The bunkers are plentiful, varied and devilish, but only a few holes really stood out to me on TV, which is surely a poor substitute for being on the ground. But Tom's post also reminds me of a time that I told a guy that his new home course had six or so very good holes. He was truly offended and I meant no offense. Same here; I'm not suggesting Muirfield isn't a great championship venue but I doubt I'll remember more than a few holes a month from now. Surely playing would inflate that number so I'd better visit.

[Bill Vogeney]

I personally loved what I saw at Muirfield. I would gladly withstand the slow pace of play, changing and having lunch between nines, and all that jazz, in order to play it

[Mac Plumart]

Surely playing would inflate that number so I'd better visit.

Terry, maybe you are right on this.  Frankly, I'm struggling with how people can say negative things about the course.  Perhaps the bulk of these people haven't played it.  Maybe you are on to something here.

I've only played it one time, but seeing the course on t.v. brought back memories of every hole and recollections of the amazing shots, flow of the course, greens, bunkering...everything.  Maybe if you haven't played it, the t.v. doesn't do it justice. 

It could be like the recurring comments that t.v. doesn't do the hilliness/elevation changes, scale, and green contours of Augusta National any justice.

As far as memorable holes, I suppose that is up to each and everyone's memory and taste.  But 2 is a cool hole, then they way it transitions into 3, the par three 4 giving way to the par 5 5th and its wide open feel.  Gosh, then 6 which twists into 7...and I think 8 is a truly great hole.  Shoot...Mark P. is correct...1-18.  This thing is really, really good!!

[Jonathan Mallard]

Terry:

I think the only really unforgettable holes at Muirfield are 8, 9, 13 and 17.  But four is a pretty good number.  I was not able to watch much of the TV coverage at all -- I was playing in a member-guest at the exact times for the final two rounds -- but it is tough for TV to show how narrow and severe a green like 13 really is.

Tom,

Does it still rate a 10 on the Doak scale?

[Bill_McBride]

Terry, that's a pretty outrageous comment if you haven't played there.  I have only played the course twice, in one 36 hole day in 2007, and I remember each hole vividly.  And each is excellent and presents a serious challenge.  The four holes Tom Doak mentions are outstanding, but all the rest are memorable once you've played the course. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

This thread is a good reason we should refrain from criticizing courses we've never played.  Neither TV nor pictures  can even remotely come close to showing the attributes or deficiencies of a course. 

[Terry Lavin]

With all due respect, I'm just asking about the memorability of the holes. I'm not being critical of the greatness of the course. I said up front that this observation is from watching the championship. I'm sure Doak has been there before and he said there are four unforgettable holes. Mark Pearce whom I've met and respect, says all 18 are unforgettable. I'll reserve final judgment until I play the course but I find it hard to believe all 18 are unforgettable. But the possibility exists.

[Matthew Sander]

This thread is a good reason we should refrain from criticizing courses we've never played.  Neither TV nor pictures  can even remotely come close to showing the attributes or deficiencies of a course. 

Tommy,

I don't necessarily agree. Terry pointed out that he hasn't played Muirfield, and was remarking on what he saw on TV. He also asked, "What am I missing?"  I interpreted Terry's post as a request for those that do have experience at Muirfield to elaborate on its virtues. Later in the thread he also conceded that he's certain his opinion would inflate after a visit.

I think it is a bit silly when we attempt to make definitive statements without a visit, but surely there is nothing wrong with merely explaining our opinions gleaned from TV or pictures and asking for clarification from others that have played the course in question, no?

Personally, I haven't played Torrey or Muirfield, but from what I've seen from both on TV, I would choose to play Muirfied if it were an either/or proposition. Naturally though, it would be better to see both!

[William_G]

I am also a believer in not critiquing something I have not yet experienced, yet....

Terry has expressed exactly what I was thinking this week, and I too have not played Muirfield (but I do have my Macgregor Muirfield blades in the basement)

Thanks for making your point Terry, with which I agree.

[Matthew Petersen]

The main objection to the course [Herb Wind and others] is that the fairways aren't nearly as undulating as at Troon or St. Andrews or Royal St. George's or many other links ... you don't have the odd bounces out of the fairway off a drive, and you don't have the awkward stances for your iron shots, except on rare occasions.

That may be, but I liked the odd combination of essentially flat fairways with some holes that had bumpier ones. For instance, I loved watched a good slight fade (or in Mickelson's case his baby hook that ran forever) chase down the 15th fairway. The only way to find that fairway in those firm conditions was to play a shot that moved left to right. But then at 17 you get a fairway with all the humps and bumps and hills and hollows you could ever want, which played their role throughout the week in rejecting some shots and making others into winners.

[Rick Shefchik]

I'm with Terry. I haven't played Muirfield; I would love to play there someday, and I thought the conditions during the Open, though very severe, would be a total joy to play. But I come away as a TV viewer with no solid impressions of any of the holes. I'll take that as a criticism of my own ability to absorb the nuances of a great course from my couch, but there are several other courses on the Open rota -- not including TOC, which I have played and feel deeply familiar with -- that have a number of holes I recognize immediately on television.

[Mark Pearce]

Without wanting to split hairs, I think there's a difference between memorable and unforgetable.  That said, I'm surprised 5 doesn't make it onto Tom D's list.  Probably the least memorable holes are the par 3s excluding 13.  If the course has a weakness it's that 4, 7 and 16 are a little similar.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

2 was playing as a 2 iron and 7 a 9 iron which is quite a difference in my book. The course does not have any spectacular holes and yet is a great, great course which I will take over the countless examples of one hole courses there are.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Without wanting to split hairs, I think there's a difference between memorable and unforgetable.  That said, I'm surprised 5 doesn't make it onto Tom D's list.  Probably the least memorable holes are the par 3s excluding 13.  If the course has a weakness it's that 4, 7 and 16 are a little similar.

Mark:

I think the 5th is a great par-5 ... in fact I think the three par-5's at Muirfield are all great holes, and I've previously cited it as the best set of par-5's in the world.  But I think a lot of people would forget #5.  It's only at the green that it becomes a great hole.

Incidentally, we used that 5th green [or at least, the idea of a two-tiered green with the right tier higher] as the inspiration for the 18th at Sebonack.

[AJ_Foote]

Tom:

Interested to hear you say that a lot of people would forget #5.

I would argue the opposite, though maybe more on ambient than architectural grounds.

I've just played the two rounds on one glorious day at Muirfield, and I was expecting it to be a lot more flat and dour than it actually is, based on what I'd gleaned elsewhere.

But at #5 I thought the course really opened out along the coastline with views I didn't expect. 

Thrilling stuff.

Andrew

[Sven Nilsen]

To emphasize the point in the OP, I bet if you sat the average golf fan down and made them watch two days coverage of an Open Championship at the Old Course, they probably wouldn't be able to recall more than 5 or 6 specific holes afterwards.

This doesn't speak to the quality of the course, just the absence of distinctive and memorable features.  Its really a statement regarding simplicity.

The only quibble I have with Terry's statement is that I don't think using Torrey Pines as a comparative example adds any credence to his initial thought.

Sven

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