Tom,
How long can the new course at Dismal play from the tips? Did Chris have an idea of how long he wanted it to play?
Keith:
I think it can be stretched to 7000 yards or perhaps a bit more than that if you push the margins ... as at Ballyneal, there is so much short grass from green to tee that there is latitude on many holes to tee off from places I really didn't plan on.
But, that's 7000 yards at 3500 feet elevation, with a lot of roll in the fairways. I think the ultimate impression will be that the course plays more like a 6500-yard course, but it may be next summer before that's apparent.
Chris was not concerned when I told him I thought it would play pretty short. That's a much easier sell to a client when they already have one course where the back tees are too long. The 7300-yard back tees at Bandon Dunes were what allowed me to build Pacific Dunes at 6700.
Tom,
Do you feel the Nicklaus course plays too long from the back tees? I don't find it particularly long. I know there have been some changes to it from the original, perhaps some of the worst excesses were fixed before I first played it? The only hole where I feel the back tees make a truly significant difference in how difficult the hole plays is the par 3 5th. Playing that back tee from 195 to the uphill green with the false front, big bunker in the middle and back of green that kicks away makes for a shot where luck perhaps plays too great a role versus skill in where the ball ends up, especially when the wind is blowing. And I at least hit the ball high so the elevation matters little for me, I'm sure for some who play a low trajectory a shot that distance to that green is essentially impossible, perhaps requiring hitting a landing area the size of a welcome mat to stay on the green.
The thing about the Nicklaus course is that your success is all about keeping your tee shots in play - the many greens with partial bowls increases the margin for error significantly for approach shots, which tends to devalue them by comparison. My odds of hitting the fairway are no different on a 440 yard par 4 and a 500 yard par 4 - in some cases they may be better if I'm staying short of some of the difficulties by playing further back. While some holes have a reasonably large increase in distance from the tips, I'm still comfortably playing an iron into them all after a decent tee shot unless into a pretty good wind. My measure for "are you playing the right tees" has always been the following: if you're mostly hitting wedges to the par 4s, move back; if you're unable to reach multiple greens on par 4s with an iron, move up.
Your course is much more about the approach shot, it gets more challenging as you approach the hole, especially if you try to approach it from a less than ideal direction. On such a course, the distance of a hole matters less than one's ability to successfully pull off the shot one is attempting to play, which is probably why I generally find them more difficult
I was thinking about this on my drive home a few weeks ago and was considering how your course would play in reverse. I was going to ask Chris if he's tried that yet...