[Sean_A]

Okay, some folks don't think Edgbaston is up to much.  As a way of defending this poor old elegant Colt design, lets bash it against Liphook - a GCA darling.  I like both courses and don't know which will come out on top in the matchplay.

#1 - Draw - neither hole really works that well as an opener.

#2 Tough call, both are fairly long par 4s with awkward drives, but for different reasons.  Lips plays over a road and to a green running quite swiftly from play.  Edge's green too runs away from play.  Draw.

#3 Liphook +1  No brainer here.  Liphook's short hole is lovely.


#4 Edge - all Square Edge features another par 4 bending around large trees down the left and wonderful plateau green.


#5  Draw - all square  Both holes are quite good because of the green sites.
Edge par 3


Lips par 5


#6 another very difficult choice.  Lips plays the angles with a moderate par 4 and Edge is a banger par 4.  I will plop for Edge in this case - the bumpy fairway is great.  Edge +1


#7 Man, what a tough choice!  Both are wonderful par 3s, but I think Lips take the day.  All square


#8 Edge +1 Edge takes the day here with a more interesting drive harassed by bunkers and a difficult 2nd. Lips is one of the manyinbetweener par 4s.


#9 Just to show the incredibly high quality of two relatively unknown courses, the ninth is a hard choice. Have to go with land forms here.  Lips - all square.
Edge par 4


Lips par 4


Front 9 - all square


#10 There can only be one outcome here. Lips features another awkward par 4 while the 10th at Edge is a great banger par 4 with a superb green. Edge +1.


#11 What to choose, a sneaky drivable par 4 or a very good par 3?  I am quite partial to the good short par 4 so it has to be Edge for me.  Edge +2.


#12 Edge +3  Edge features another craft short par 4 with good centreline bunkering.  The green is extremely tricky with kicks down to the left - toward water.  Lips is a fine par 4, but without distinction.


#13 - I like Edge's par 4 bending around the water, but Lips par 5 is spectacular. Lips - Edge +2.


#14 Edge should pose a bigger threat here because Lips short par 4 bending around trees is not nearly ideal - it does however feature a very good green.  Edge's par 3 is very good, but the vegetation is extremely annoying.  Draw - Edge +2

#15 Lips is definitely running out of steam at this point, but Edge is gathering problems with trees.  Of the awkward short 4s at Lips I think 15 is the best.  Edge has a great green up the hill, but the bowling of trees is problematic.  Edge +1

#16 I don't like how the fairway ends for Lips, but despite what should be another good drivable hole at Edge, the trees screw it up.  All square.

#17  Both are fine holes.  I like the angle of the green for Lip's short hole, but I also like the uphill par 5 at Edge ending in a plateau green. Draw - all square.

Edge


#18 The use of angles for Edge's home hole takes the day - Edge +1.  Lips' is a straight away par 5 not without merit because of the sharply uphill green. 


The Intangibles: aesthetically, Liphook trumps Edgbaston.  The bunkering is more attractive and the space of the site is appealing.  On the flip side, the road crossings at Lips is horrendous.  Draw - Edge +1.

Hole for hole - Edgbaston punches well above its weight and that shouldn't be surprising for a Colt course. What is surprising is why Edgbaston remains in the backwaters of rankings.  This shouldn't be the case and I can only guess it is the small site which holds people back from admiring the course or perhaps even visiting.  It is clear to me that Liphook has nothing on Edgbaston design wise, but that aesthetics go a long way to influencing opinion.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Nice try!

All the best

PS - Isn't Liphook on free draining sand? What's Edgbaston built on? Just thinking in terms of the availability of quality play over 12 months per year, year after year, after year.

[Sean_A]

Nice try!

All the best

PS - Isn't Liphook on free draining sand? What's Edgbaston built on? Just thinking in terms of the availability of quality play over 12 months per year, year after year, after year.

Even if I add turf and give the Intangibles to Lips its still all square.  Not nearly the blowout people might expect based on a serious leanings toward aesthetics.

You should give the matchplay a go.  Its surprising how opinions of courses can change when we really match holes up.  I think Edgbaston is far better than given credit for, but it took me about 5 plays to see it. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Nice try!

All the best

PS - Isn't Liphook on free draining sand? What's Edgbaston built on? Just thinking in terms of the availability of quality play over 12 months per year, year after year, after year.

Even if I add turf and give the Intangibles to Lips its still all square.  Not nearly the blowout people might expect based on a serious leanings toward aesthetics.

You should give the matchplay a go.  Its surprising how opinions of courses can change when we really match holes up.  I think Edgbaston is far better than given credit for, but it took me about 5 plays to see it. 

Ciao

The 'matchplay' is a nice way of doing comparisons. I will indeed give it a try.

All the best.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Have to say the land and bunker placements at Edgbaston looks really good from the photos... A little bit of aesthetic renovation might help it out though...

[Sean_A]

Have to say the land and bunker placements at Edgbaston looks really good from the photos... A little bit of aesthetic renovation might help it out though...

Ally

There is no question the club could do with a serious rethink on trees and bunker style.  Originally, many of the bunkers seen as 2s & 3s were one large bunker.  I can see why they were broken up, but in doing so the small property seems smaller whereas larger bunkers with the rolling hills would give the impression of a grander site.  In any case, Edgbaston is a top notch 2nd tier Colt.

Brian

Of course aesthetics and beauty matter, but design trumps aesthetics all day long.

Ciao

[Steve Kline]

Sean - Instead of doing match play in strict number order, which can arbitrarily pit strong holes against weak ones, what if you ranked the par 3s at each course from best to worst. For example, rank the par 3s at Liphook compared to each from best to worst. Then rank the par 3s at Edgbaston from best to worst against each other. Then compare the best par 3 at Liphook to the best par 3 at Edgbaston. Do the same thing for the par 4s and par 5s. I think this would give us a better idea as to which course was truly better. Of course, something would have to be done in comparing courses that don't have the same number 3s, 4s, and 5s. One possibility is that If one course had an additional very good par 3 in the grand scheme of design then that should beat an average par 5.

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Although it's not as good as Broadstone    I'm a fan of Edgbaston,  the greens and in particular the contours in front (like the 3rd etc).

It looks like they have relaid the greens, but I'm hoping they didn't change the contours?  Look similar from your pics.

Ally

The bunkers were really fancy back in the day.  I have some good old pics of the course.

[Sean_A]

Paul

Edgbaston supposedly didn't change any greens in relaying them - so much as is possible anyway.  I was skeptical of the value of going through this, but this year it seems to have really paid off.  The greens are much firmer and thus the slopes and contours are much more recognizable.  One green I know is changed is #9.  This was done before the relaying job to create two tiers.  I don't know what the green looked liked before, but it is well done. 

Steve

Your system requires a lot more work! 

Liphook Par 3s - a good set with one I think to be outstanding - #7.  Worst to best: 1, 11, 3, 17 & 7

Edgbaston Par 3s - a good set marred by trees, none are outstanding.  Worst to best 3, 14, 5, 7

Lips 1 V Edge 3 - draw
11 V 14 - trees marr what could be Edge;'s best par 3 - Lip+1
3 V 5 - both are good, but I am going with beauty here - Lip +2
17 V 7 - Again, both are good. I do have concerns about Lips being only really good when the hole is back.  Edge is one of the best drop shot 3s I know of - Lips +1

Lips #7 is a left over

Liphook Par 4s are a bit of stunted group.  There are several shortish par 4s which aren't reachable - the weakness of the course

Edgbaston par 4s are better varied and include as good a set of banger 4s as one will find on many a championship course.  There are also some a few shorties which are drivable - so great diversity

Lips 10 V Edge 1 - I like Lips green - Lips +1
12 V 15 - Despite Edge having a great green I have to call it a draw due to trees - Lips +1
4 V 16 - Edge should be the clear winner, but trees...draw - Lips +1
8 V 9 - Both have good greens and both are quite constrained - draw - Lips +1
14 V 13 - Very awkward drive for Lips, but good green; A longish hole around water with a good green, but a wet hole - draw - Lips +1
15 V 12 - Terrible walk getting to Lips tee, but a good hole if a bit tight; requires a well placed drive and the green is deceptively difficult - draw - Lips +1
6 V 2 - Lips uses the angle for tee shot very well; Edge requires a well placed drive - draw - Lips +1
2 V 8 - Lips is a long par 4 in which it is quite difficult to hold the fairway, the approach is blind over a road; Edge has cross bunkering cutting the drive off and a blind second to a small green - draw - Lips +1
16 V 10 - I like Lips hole, the green site is lovely, but I don't like the cut off fairway; Edge is the better hole, a banger over a hill to an excellent green - All square
9 V 11 - Both holes are good, but I have to give this one to Lips because of the use of landforms - Lips +1

Edge has its best three par 4s as left-overs; #s 6, 4 & 18

Par 5s - Edgbaston only has one par 5 - #17 and it is a goodun'.  Liphook has three with #13 probably being the best.  I will substitute the two worst of the remaining Edge 4s - #s 6 &4

Lips 18 V Edge 6 (par 4) - both play about the same length over tumbling ground though Edge's is more sharp; with OOB lurking Edge's can be dangerous, but Lips has a good green - draw
5 V 4 (par 4) - I like both holes, but I think the plateau green and land movement put Edge on top - Edge +1
13 V 17 - Lips hole is visually stunning, but awkward in terms of finding the fairway and the crossing hazard isn't ideally placed; Edge requires two big blows to get home and the plateau green is well protected - draw - Edge +1

We know have the matter of the left over holes.  Lips par 3 7th V Edge's par 4 18th.  I think along with #9, that the 7th is probably Lips best hole.  Edge's final hole requires a very good drive and a very accurate 2nd.  Still, I have to go with Lip here - such a cool hole. Lip +1

That means Lip wins the par 3s +1
Lip wins the par 4s +1 (very surprising to me)
Edge wins the long par 4s/5s +1
Lip wins the outlier +1

Total Liphook +2: Liphook has the better turf and the aesthetics on its side, but Edgbaston has the superior walk without roads interrupting the game.  Call this a draw.  Although for me personally, this is a big tick against Liphook so far as a day in the park goes and I mark Lips down a full notch for my purposes.  For this exercise, Liphook +2


Ciao

[Steve Kline]

Interesting that Lips wins (opposite result of your original match) with a slightly bigger margin in my match play set up. Also, based on the photos, the look of Lips seems more enjoyable to me.

[Sean_A]

Interesting that Lips wins (opposite result of your original match) with a slightly bigger margin in my match play set up. Also, based on the photos, the look of Lips seems more enjoyable to me.

Steve

You never know what will happen in match play. 

My overall point remains valid.  Liphook (and others) are on top 100 lists, they should be beating up on the Edgbastons of the UK.  That, however, isn't the case, well, I don't think it is.  There is a strong case for Edgbaston (as well as for Kington) to be recognized as a very good course.  I see that on UKtop 100 that Blackwell and Beau Desert get top 100 spots in England.  Thats a fairly new thing I think.  Perhaps folks are waking up to Midlands golf.  There is without a doubt a London bias for golf in the rankings.

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

This is another example of a very smart thread with excellent points made by those that know these courses.  Nice job SA, your photos seem to always show what appears most notable of the designs. 

[Sean_A]

Steve

Thinking on your system of matchplay, it is easy to lose the flow of the course and pace of the routing.  Holes are important for what they are and where they are.  In the case of this matchup, I would say Edgbaston's superior par 4s have been relegated to nothing more important than any of the other sets.  I think of the 4s as the heart and soul of a golf course and in this case, the three best went unchallenged.  Mind you, Liphook's 3s make up some ground, but that is far less an archie achievement than a fine set of 4s.  Edgbaston also, imo anyway, rightly sacrifies the par 5s - which are usually holes that fail to inspire.

I wonder if we were to create categories for short, banger and normal 4s to demonstrate how important they are to a course....

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

........I see that on UKtop 100 that Blackwell and Beau Desert get top 100 spots in England.  Thats a fairly new thing I think.  Perhaps folks are waking up to Midlands golf.  There is without a doubt a London bias for golf in the rankings.

Ciao

Around Birmingham there are a ring of splendid courses. From the north west rotating clockwise you have South Staffs, Beau Desert, Little Aston, Sutton Coldfield, Whittington Heath, Copt Heath, Blackwell, Edgbaston (chuckle), Sandwell Park and Enville (actually two 18-holers at Enville, the Lodge and the better imo Highgate, both well worth playing) most of which have had GCA photo tours done of them at one time or another. Plus a ring of other nice courses such as the likes of Walsall, Olton, Harborne, Fulford Heath, Moseley, Kings Norton (27), Robin Hood, Shirley plus others I can't recall just now, and oh yes, some place called The Belfrey.

I guess most main urban centres in the UK have, if you look close enough, a bunch of very fine courses to hand, the area just north of Leeds for example with Moortwon, Alwoodly, Sand Moor etc or north of Nottingham with Hollinwell, Coxmoor, Sherwood Forest, Worksop, Lindrick etc. A London bias is not unexpected, but things do seem to be moving in the right direction these days. Fortunately, out in the sticks as it were, you generally don't have to pay London prices, a few newbies near Aberdeen, St Andrews and Inverness apart that is.

All the best

[Sean_A]

Unfortunately, some of the best Brum/Midland courses have figured out they were not keeping up with the Jones' and now £50 is essentially the starting price for good golf in the area - heavy sigh.

Ciao

 

[BCrosby]

"Edgbaston also, imo anyway, rightly sacrifies the par 5s - which are usually holes that fail to inspire."

Edgbaston may sacrifice them, but par 5's are not normally "holes that fail to inspire".

Bob

[Sean_A]

"Edgbaston also, imo anyway, rightly sacrifies the par 5s - which are usually holes that fail to inspire."

Edgbaston may sacrifice them, but par 5's are not normally "holes that fail to inspire".

Bob

In my experience, par 5s are usually the worst set of a course.  It really is something special when there is more than one par 5 on a course worth its walk.

Ciao

[Tom Kelly]

Sean,

Really interesting thread and selection of courses as I've been a member at both!

I too think that Edgbaston is probably under rated, but there are obvious reasons why it isn't more highly thought of that have been pointed out a few times by yourself and others. Both the bunkering and poorly managed trees have a huge negative effect on what is a solid routing over some interesting ground. They really restrict some nicely designed holes. There are also a few duff ones out there too though.

Liphook is severally flawed/damaged by the road and railway making for a few forced and slightly awkward holes but the great set of greens, fantastic bunkering and general maintenance of the course, both in quality of turf and the management of the heath and the architectural aspects of how the course plays are at a whole different level. Even without the obvious aesthetic advantage, I would argue Liphook to be an equal if not better course, but with it (and I too believe it has a huge effect on the overall quality of the course) it is an easy decision for me.

In their current state I believe Liphook is a far superior course to Edgbaston.

I'll do a matchplay hole for hole as soon as I get chance to help explain abit more from my point of view (I have it at Liphook winning with +4).

I really like the whole idea of this thread though, any other interesting matches you can come up with?!


Brian,

Yes Edgbaston does become a bog in the winter unfortunately.



Paul Turner,

Any chance of seeing a few of those pictures you mention? Are they on another thread somewhere that you can point me towards? Your just teasing us at the moment.

Cheers

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

The pics are in an old book but it's a bit delicate(old) and expensive...not sure if I can scan without damaging.

[BCrosby]

"In my experience, par 5s are usually the worst set of a course."

I don't have the energy to write a rebuttal replete with examples of great par 5's that figure prominently in the quality of various courses. Still, I'm puzzled. Perhaps it's a matter of your experience of golf architecture having little in common with mine.

Bob

[Paul_Turner]

Bob

I think in the UK (not the US) it's quite common for the par 5s to be the weakest holes on a good or even a great course.  It's usually much more likely that the par 3s are a better set.  Partly I guess because on the older courses at least there are/were often only 1 or 2 par 5s whereas there are 4 or 5 par 3s.

It's rare that the par 5s are the pick of the course in the UK....Muirfield is an exception.  It's usually more like Portrush and Ballybunion where the least interesting land is eaten up with the par 5s..

[Thomas Dai]

If "Edgbaston does become a bog in the winter unfortunately", then that, plus the views of a member/ex-member of both clubs that Liphook is superior ought to carry the day.

Great defence of Edgbaston by Sean however. Next time the Aussies are playing cricket at the other Edgbaston perhaps they may look to co-opt him into their batting line-up!

All the best.

[BCrosby]

Bob

I think in the UK (not the US) it's quite common for the par 5s to be the weakest holes on a good or even a great course.  It's usually much more likely that the par 3s are a better set.  Partly I guess because on the older courses at least there are/were often only 1 or 2 par 5s whereas there are 4 or 5 par 3s.

It's rare that the par 5s are the pick of the course in the UK....Muirfield is an exception.  It's usually more like Portrush and Ballybunion where the least interesting land is eaten up with the par 5s..

Paul -

I am happy to defer to your wider and deeper knowledge of UK courses. But of the 20 or so UK courses I have played, I am hard pressed to identify more than a couple on which one or more par 5 doesn't contribute to the reputation of the course. For that reason I do not understand characterizing par 5's in the UK as being "usually" nothing more than long slogs. To the contrary, those that I've played make for a fascinating group of holes overall.

Bob

[Sean_A]

Bob

I think in the UK (not the US) it's quite common for the par 5s to be the weakest holes on a good or even a great course.  It's usually much more likely that the par 3s are a better set.  Partly I guess because on the older courses at least there are/were often only 1 or 2 par 5s whereas there are 4 or 5 par 3s.

It's rare that the par 5s are the pick of the course in the UK....Muirfield is an exception.  It's usually more like Portrush and Ballybunion where the least interesting land is eaten up with the par 5s..

Paul -

I am happy to defer to your wider and deeper knowledge of UK courses. But of the 20 or so UK courses I have played, I am hard pressed to identify more than a couple on which one or more par 5 doesn't contribute to the reputation of the course. For that reason I do not understand characterizing par 5's in the UK as being "usually" nothing more than long slogs. To the contrary, those that I've played make for a fascinating group of holes overall.

Bob

Bob

Perhaps you have a higher tolerance for three-shotters than I do.  I bet this group would struggle to name 20 great par 5s in GB&I, but could name 20 3s and 4s in a heartbeat.  Par 5s are the hardest holes to design and I believe that is apparent when they are encountered.  In fact, I cite the concept of four par 5s on a course as one of the worst developments in architecture.  Its really the start of bagging up yardage when often times what would be better is to decrease yardage and par.   

Ciao

[BCrosby]

Sean -

As for your views about par 5's, I can only repeat that your experience of golf architecture has little in common with mine. It is the rare architect who would willingly forego building par 5's. Likewise, I know of few players who would enjoy a fare of nothing but par 3's and 4's. In both cases for reasons that I think are fairly obvious.

Are there twenty good par 5's in the UK? Understood to mean par 5's that add to the reputation of the courses on which they are found? Off the top of my head and referencing only courses I have played (I've not played in Ireland or Wales and in England only around London):

TOC (1)
New Course (1)
Dornoch (2)
Cruden Bay (2)
Carnoustie (2)
Muirfield (2)
N. Berwick (2) (both are under-rated and I think as memorable as more famous holes at NB)
Gullane #1 (1) (I haven't played #2 or #3)
RSG (1)
St Georges Hill (2)
Sunny New (2)
Sunny Old (1)
Walton Heath Old (1) (I've not played New)
Kingsbarns (1, arguably 2)
Huntercombe (1; the pit on the 16th is terrific fun)
Deal (1)
Princes (1)
Western Gailes (1, arguably 2)
Prestwick (1)

That's twenty or so from the small sampling of UK courses I have played.  Those who have played more courses will no doubt have others to add. I am happy to quibble about any of these, but I was trying to be conservative. I don't need to say it (but I will anyway) - many of the above are world class par 5's.

BTW, after thinking about this, I'd guess that the ratio of good par 5's to less good par 5's in the UK is  not much different than the ratio you would find on US courses.

You are selling UK par 5's short in practice. Your theoretical objections to them I simply don't understand.

Bob

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