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V. Kmetz

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Historical Green Speed at Winged Foot West

1974 - 7.35

1984 - 9.5 avg

This information was collected recently from the USGA, who surprisingly archived these readings, especially since the modern Stimpmeter came into vogue but a few years later (in the case of 74).

The Turf expert who collected the data, said the greens themselves (though the technology had not yet developed enough to have allowed them to be cut much lower) might have "played" faster because less water was also required and the ground was firmer, though with a longer covering of surface. Also with more (and higher )grain, downhill putts would still amble and uphill putts could be smacked a bit.  He guesstimates that in 1974, a 7.35 overall meant severe downhill/side-hill putts rolled at in the hi 10s/near 11, with uphill putts like something in the mid 5s.

This jives with what my eyes sees when I watch historical footage.

The entire discussion came up with regards to this stretch of intense humid weather and what is a speed that will both protect the turf but maintain the notorious challenge of WF greenside play to contemporary expectations.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Steve Kline

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 09:24:02 PM »
The change in speed in downhill and uphill has to be much greater that today. I think that would make putting and chipping significantly mroe difficult. It would be hard to get yourself to hit the uphill ones hard enough.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 12:03:01 AM »
VK

With the USGA first using the Stimpmeter in 1976, I don't see how you can cite 1974 Stimp speeds

Frank Pont

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 01:18:16 AM »
Very interesting data, amazing to see the short time interval in which the green speeds have increased.

I am surprised because I thought it was in the 50's that green speeds were 6-7, but that they had increased significantly by the 70's

Charlie_Bell

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 07:06:46 AM »
Steve, I understand what you're saying about uphill putts in theory.  As someone who still plays on very slow greens (not 7.5 slow, but close...) I'd say that in practice it's not a problem.  You get used to whacking the uphillers hard, and there's not much penalty for going past the hole because a) they don't go so far past the hole, proportional to the distance of the putt, and b) the downhill come-backers aren't nearly as scary on slow greens. 

I'd love to know more about the influence of grain on sidehill putts on slow vs. fast greens;  I don't have enough experience to comment.  On the one hand, putts on fast greens might be more susceptible to grain because, well, there's less rolling resistance in the direction of the putt.  On the other hand, with longer blades of grass, you might see a greater influence on slow greens.   Perhaps we should ask Johnny Miller, who seems obsessed with the topic...

Steve Kline

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 07:31:17 AM »
I'm pretty sure Johnny Miller would tell that the grain in my marble countertop would affect my putt.

Charlie - also think about in reverse. You have downhill putt that effectively runs at 11. You hit it 6, 8, or 10 feet by. Now you have an uphill putt that effectively runs at 5. Most people will leave the following uphill putt short. I have to believe that the effective disparity of the speed in your mind was greater in the older greens than they are today. Of course, I would never know until I get to play on some greens like that.

John Gosselin

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 09:19:35 AM »
The first use of the stimpeter in Philly was in 1977 and only the USGA had the tool. Not sure how they measured in 1974.


The late Stan Zonteck of the USGA shared with me the first stimpeter readings in the area from July of 1977. There were about 8 courses on the list comprising of the usual suspects in the Philly area. The highest reading was a 7.2 with lowest at 5.7.

Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Tom_Doak

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 09:27:14 AM »
Charlie - also think about in reverse. You have downhill putt that effectively runs at 11. You hit it 6, 8, or 10 feet by. Now you have an uphill putt that effectively runs at 5. Most people will leave the following uphill putt short. I have to believe that the effective disparity of the speed in your mind was greater in the older greens than they are today. Of course, I would never know until I get to play on some greens like that.

I played on some greens like that just the other day, at Kawartha G&CC in Ontario.  They are heavily tilted so they can't keep them very fast ... maybe 8 1/2 or 9 with a bit more grain and lots of 5% tilt.  The difference between downhill and uphill putts was pretty amazing.

Do you really only play at courses where the greens are 10 all the time?

Steve Kline

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 10:07:36 AM »
I doubt it, but I was guessing that the agronomic practices have the speed more even. Of course extreme uphill and downhill are going to make a difference no matter what the speed.

Brent Hutto

Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 10:27:38 AM »
I played Sunday at the course where I first started golf about 20 years ago. They have never replaced the Common Bermuda on their tiny little push-up greens. Pretty grainy stuff. Like the course Tom mentioned, probably half to two-thirds of the greens have slopes of 4-5% maybe even a bit more in a spot or two.

Hard to say what the average Stimp would be on those. I know downhill putts were every bit as fast as at my home course which has pretty fast green. But something along the lines of the "guesstimated" 1974 Winged Foot values of 5-6 uphill and at least 10 downhill is probably the correct ballpark.

The first couple holes I had one downhiller get away from me and run off the green and had one uphiller left woefully short. But by about the fourth hole I guess my kinesthetic memory from playing there for a thousand or so rounds back in the 90's must have kicked in. I putted fine the rest of the way in.

I found it very interesting how my brain/body system seems to have both "slow, extremely grainy Common Bermuda" mode and "fast, somewhat grainy hybrid Bermuda" modes stored away. Actually I guess I have just about 1,000 rounds each on those two courses so the putting is probably hardwired by now.

While I'm babbling I'll mention one other thing I noticed. The grain tends to run downslope on those turtle-backed pushup greens. So for any hole cut toward an edge of the green there's both a fall-off slope of several percent and the grass Stimps 9-10 in that direction. It really affects how you play approach shots. If you're going to play to the middle of the green and let the slope feed the ball over to the hole you have to play WAY OVER THERE toward the middle. Not just 5-10 feet but 20-30 feet. Conversely, if you want to land in the fringe on the short side and let the ball bounce up toward the hole you have to land it pretty close to the hole. The fall-off slopes and into-grain direction you'll be putting will grab a bouncing approach and kill the momentum pretty fast.

Overall I think I like the added complexity of a big into-grain/down-grain speed disparity as it affects both putting and chipping or approach shot play. It makes trying to fit a ball into the "short side" pay off a bit extra because you can be so aggressive chipping into that grain, even if you miss the green by 10 yards and only have 10 feet of putting surface to work with. That's not a bad position because the into-grain grass checks the ball up so fast.

When I used to play there one of my regular gang was infamous for always shooting 78, 79, 80, 81 while routinely "missing" almost every green. It's because he used a strategy of "below the hole at any cost" and would rather be five yards off the green chipping back into the slope than even 10 feet above the hole putting down-slope and down-grain. Hole after hole if the pin was near an edge he'd be in the fringe just off the green, chip up and have a tap-in one-putt par.

That was enabled, however, by them keeping the grass mown short for several yards past the "fringe". So you could miss greens by 6-8 yards and not be in punitive rough. I doubt they do the same at Winged Foot!

SL_Solow

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 10:40:26 AM »
Stinpson invented the Stimpmeter (wooden version) in the mid 30's.  USGA came out with the metal version in 76 I believe.  It is entirely possible that someone had readings from an older version pre1976.  I recall that Brad Klein has some data from some top Chicago courses dating back to the 80's.  I don't have it handy but my recollection is that speeds were often below 8 feet and rarely reached 9.  These were well respected and maintained clubs and at the time, we thought the greens were plenty fast. The same courses today are in the 9.0 - 11.0 range depending upon weather.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 12:04:21 PM »
From a 1990 USGA article by David Oatis:

It should be noted that in 1976 and 1977, the years during which the stimpmeter was tested, the average speed across the country was 6' 6". Furthermore, anything over 7' 6" was considered excitingly fast by the Green Section agronomists doing the testing.

...and here are the readings at the 1978 US Open at Cherry Hills:

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1970s/1978/781107.pdf


...and one on the difference in uphill/downhill putts using 1/4" and 3/16" settings:

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1980s/1980/800107.pdf
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 12:20:28 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim Nugent

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 12:27:26 PM »
Do the old stimpmeters measure as accurately as the newer ones? 

Jim_Kennedy

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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SL_Solow

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 12:59:01 PM »
Jim;  the answer is that the Stimpmeter is not a very scientific tool.  It was designed to try to achieve consistency, not to measure relative speed.  I have seen inexperienced users lift the device too quickly thereby creating momentum and increasing readings dramatically.  But it provides pretty decent rough measurements.  I would be surprised if there are major differences in the various iterations.  Incidentally, Dave Pelz created his own Pelzmeter which uses the same principles.  However I believe it employs 3 balls and they are released by pulling a trigger when the device reaches the appropriate level and is steady.  He suggests that this will eliminate the momentum issue and give more accurate readings.  Much ado about nothing.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »
Just out of curiosity, do we think it was the USGA who promoted the fastest greens?  Or is ANGC the biggest culprit (if that is the right word)  As a dark horse, how about Muirfield Village and the Memorial?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JMEvensky

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 02:22:37 PM »

Just out of curiosity, do we think it was the USGA who promoted the fastest greens?  Or is ANGC the biggest culprit (if that is the right word)  As a dark horse, how about Muirfield Village and the Memorial?


My understanding has always been that the Stimpmeter was designed as a tool to measure the consistency of green speeds on a particular golf course.Maybe the promoting of green speeds was just the Law of Unintended Consequence at work.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2013, 02:55:01 PM »
Just out of curiosity, do we think it was the USGA who promoted the fastest greens?  Or is ANGC the biggest culprit (if that is the right word)  As a dark horse, how about Muirfield Village and the Memorial?

A good researcher [i.e., not me] could go back in the golf literature and identify where a specific course or courses started talking about the speed of their greens, and when it first got onto T.V.  My vague memory is that they didn't talk about the Stimpmeter on T.V. until recent years.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2013, 03:30:11 PM »
Jim, thanks for the link.  If they don't have big enough areas to make the measurements, they could shorten the length of the stimpmeter; reduce the angle; or do both. 

I've always been curious if on most courses all the greens stimp the same, or whether there are some big differences.  Differences would make putting and therefore scoring a lot harder. 

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2013, 04:08:14 PM »
Jim, thanks for the link.  If they don't have big enough areas to make the measurements, they could shorten the length of the stimpmeter; reduce the angle; or do both. 

I've always been curious if on most courses all the greens stimp the same, or whether there are some big differences.  Differences would make putting and therefore scoring a lot harder. 

That's how it works, by sending the ball off from farther down the standard length stimpmeter, thereby needing just the one tool.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

SL_Solow

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2013, 04:08:32 PM »
Jim,  the original idea for the stimpmeter was to try and make them stimp the same.  In some recent US Opens, particularly severe greens have been cut "longer", thereby reducing the stimp reading but allowing the use of more hole locations.  This is not common practice.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2013, 08:33:26 PM »


Just out of curiosity, do we think it was the USGA who promoted the fastest greens?  Or is ANGC the biggest culprit (if that is the right word)  As a dark horse, how about Muirfield Village and the Memorial?

Jeff,

Since the USGA implemented the use of the Stimpmeter in 1976 and Augusta didn't convert from Bermuda to bent until 1981, it would seem that the need for speed wasn't born in Augusta, Georgia.


jeffwarne

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 09:14:39 PM »
Charlie - also think about in reverse. You have downhill putt that effectively runs at 11. You hit it 6, 8, or 10 feet by. Now you have an uphill putt that effectively runs at 5. Most people will leave the following uphill putt short. I have to believe that the effective disparity of the speed in your mind was greater in the older greens than they are today. Of course, I would never know until I get to play on some greens like that.

I played on some greens like that just the other day, at Kawartha G&CC in Ontario.  They are heavily tilted so they can't keep them very fast ... maybe 8 1/2 or 9 with a bit more grain and lots of 5% tilt.  The difference between downhill and uphill putts was pretty amazing.


You mean greens that actually require significant judgement AND skill (an unsolid uphill putt on such a green will not work)
and it takes great skill to barely touch a downhill, downgrain on a high % slope, and be able to putt back up against all three

and tilt that's relevant enough to affect approaches.

Sadly we let poor putters and/or better players dictate to us that faster means harder (and better)
I'd disagree on both counts
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Steve Kline

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 09:38:31 PM »
Faster greens are without a doubt easier for me to putt on. I played at Carlton Woods in their invitational several years ago. The greens were easily the fastest I had ever played, supposedly running about 13. If you got the putt online it what was going in. I knew right away on most putts if they were going in or not. The quality of the strike wasn't that important. Just get it started on line.

Carson Pilcher

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 09:57:45 PM »


Just out of curiosity, do we think it was the USGA who promoted the fastest greens?  Or is ANGC the biggest culprit (if that is the right word)  As a dark horse, how about Muirfield Village and the Memorial?

Jeff,

Since the USGA implemented the use of the Stimpmeter in 1976 and Augusta didn't convert from Bermuda to bent until 1981, it would seem that the need for speed wasn't born in Augusta, Georgia.


Augusta's bermuda greens were fast too.  Not saying "green speed" was born in Augusta, but I do not believe the invention of the stimpmeter and a club's desire to have the fastest putting surfaces have anything to do with each other.  One is Augusta, one is USGA.

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