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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2013, 10:51:08 PM »
Pat and Carson,

Prior to bent greens in 1981, the Masters and Augusta for much of the year was  played on over seeded rye grass greens.  The course was closed during the prime Bermuda grass summer months. 

Even so, my point on green speed was that with the US Open moving to different courses (like a very grainy and bumpy Pebble and Olympic for example, or a sun baked Southern Hills with bent, or Champions in Houston with Bermuda) and different areas of the country, it might seem that staying at one course every year would give the best opportunity to consistently increase green speeds, so I still attribute much of the need for speed to the Masters aura.

Not to mention, the stimp was invented, as pointed out to measure consistency, and was later thought of as a speed tool.  Given all the courses such as listed above, I can sure see how the USGA THOUGHT they were promoting consistency at least at first.  But, I think increased speed was just something golfers wanted, both from watching TV and because the greens were so darn bumpy back in those days.  Smoother greens were the goal, and maybe they just turned out to be faster, as would make sense.

And for some reason, I recall thinking that MV and JN actually set the maintenance bar for awhile as he attempted fifth major status.......

On the other hand, for the most part, I am just playing devils advocate, much like Pat does from time to time.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2013, 11:42:25 PM »


Just out of curiosity, do we think it was the USGA who promoted the fastest greens?  Or is ANGC the biggest culprit (if that is the right word)  As a dark horse, how about Muirfield Village and the Memorial?

Jeff,

Since the USGA implemented the use of the Stimpmeter in 1976 and Augusta didn't convert from Bermuda to bent until 1981, it would seem that the need for speed wasn't born in Augusta, Georgia.


Augusta's bermuda greens were fast too.  Not saying "green speed" was born in Augusta, but I do not believe the invention of the stimpmeter and a club's desire to have the fastest putting surfaces have anything to do with each other.  One is Augusta, one is USGA.

Sam Snead and other oldtimers used to talk about Augusta's greens and hearing the grass crackle as the ball rolled.
Those bermuda/rye greens could get pretty crusty.

Fast GREENS are not what's needed to test putting and approach skill. Fast PUTTS are. The two are not always the same as the faster the greens get, the more slopes have to be reduced, or great pin placements avoided.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2013, 12:26:08 AM »
Jeff and Jeff,

Your problem is that you're too young.

I remember watching Palmer, literally pounding 8 footers just to get to the hole at The Masters.

I think, if you'll look at the old films, you'll see that the greens weren't fast.

Jeff Brauer,

Agree that ANGC has a huge advantage in implementing change versus US Open venues.

They had the dictatorship, funds and ability to close the course that enabled them to make any changes.

But, I also wonder how much influence, on the speed of greens, TV was responsible for ?

Does the audience want to see birdies and three putts ?
Missed 3 footers rolling 5 feet by ?

Maybe there was a confluence of influences resulting in faster greens.
Certainly the average golfer clamored for them.
Most clubs puffed out their chest trying to declare that their greens were the fastest in the area/region.

And, what role did Oakmont play ?

Certainly they can't be overlooked when it comes to emphasis on green speed.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2013, 09:18:17 AM »
Pat,

This debate sort of reminds me of an old Simpsons episode, where they are searching for meaning of that episode events at the end.  Marge concludes that in the end, "its just a whole lot of stuff that happened."

I think we agree that ever increasing greens speeds are basically a result of just that.

And yes, I forgot Oakmont, as that was an early proponent of fast greens as part of the penal challenge.  It would be interesting to note what they were for say the 1983 US Open and what average was.  Presumably from that data, maybe 10.5 or so? 11?

BTW, my favorite green speed story comes from a well known super at a well known club (who I won't out) who responded to my question (with his greens chair right behind him) about average daily green speed with both a verbal "11" and an unseen (to his greens chair) wink and mouthed "10".

Since few really know what 11 is vs. 10, I have always suspected this is fairly common.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carson Pilcher

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2013, 12:15:54 PM »
BTW, my favorite green speed story comes from a well known super at a well known club (who I won't out) who responded to my question (with his greens chair right behind him) about average daily green speed with both a verbal "11" and an unseen (to his greens chair) wink and mouthed "10".


Classic!!!  ;D

SL_Solow

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2013, 12:41:48 PM »
Jeff,  Our now retired long time and highly decorated Super had his own pet response which an unnamed Greens Chair approved.  When asked by a member about the speed of the greens, his standard response was "too fast for you".  Discussion over.

Bill Warnick

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Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2013, 09:00:47 AM »
As a Golf Course Superintendent in the late 70's, the push for green speed by the members was on at that time. As was everything concerning course conditioning.

But in the case of green speeds, cutting heights on greens was limited to the thickness of the bottom blade of the cutting unit. Superintendents started grinding the "bedknife" down to mow the turf closer. Here is the article about Southern Hills and the 1977 US Open; where the practice was openly discussed for the first time, by the USGA.

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1970s/1979/790701.pdf

All the manufacturers started making "tournament" bedknives and the race was on. Superintendents played a large part in the race for green speed. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Articles about the Stimpmeter appeared in 1978 and 1979.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interesting Historical Data on Green Speeds at one Classic Course
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2013, 09:10:41 AM »
The superintendent of one of my courses told me recently that he'd never owned a real Stimpmeter ... but that at a previous post, he'd bought a device that was a foot longer than the real Stimpmeter, to produce high readings for the developer's benefit.  :)

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