Is Sebonack a "minimalist" golf course?

[Dan Herrmann]

Just got done watching a lot of the US Women's Open (I was at the 5th Major) at Sebonack. 

There's no doubt that it's a brilliant design - beautiful to look at and exciting to play.  Major kudos to Doak/Nicklaus.

While watching, I started to wonder if it was "minimalist".  I'm not saying that minimalism is necessary - rather, I'm curious as to how much dirt (sand) was moved out there to create the course.

To my untrained eye, it looked like some holes were created versus found (like #17). 

PS - I'm posting this to learn, not to criticize.  Tom and Jack have forgotten more about GCA than I'll ever learn

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

The only holes where earth was moved on or off the hole were
#3 [a lot of fill was added in the landing area, where some cottages once stood]
#5 [a bit of fill at the green site, from the pond on #8]
#7 [fill used from the pond on #8]
#8 [fill at the tees, cut for the pond]
#10 [fill in the landing area where some tennis courts had been graded off, again using cut from the pond on #8]
#12 [fill at the green site from the pond on #13]
#13 [distributing fill from the pond]

Hardly any of the fairways were shaped much.  Some of the green sites were shaped more than others.  #17 was one of those that was more heavily shaped.  Originally there was a mound/ridge thirty yards in front of the green that made it blind.
 

[Carl Rogers]

so 'minimalist' in this context is the minimal movement of soil, not the end result that presents a fewer number of design features?

In my viewing on the tube of the US Womens Open event, Sebonack was not at all 'minimal'.

[Tom_Doak]

so 'minimalist' in this context is the minimal movement of soil, not the end result that presents a fewer number of design features?

In my viewing on the tube of the US Womens Open event, Sebonack was not at all 'minimal'.

Carl:

Guilty as charged on that score.  I thought I'd put in a lot of features, and everyone else involved added rather than subtracted.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - thank you very much

[Peter Pallotta]

Well, just from my viewing of it on t.v., Tom, the end result was a kind of 'naturalism' that adds something very worthy to the prevailing style/ethos of existing east course courses (and east coast championship courses). In other words, I can't imagine it could ever have been the naturalism of a Ballyneal (for many reasons), but it does capture that approach and has a very appealing openess and land hugging 'freedom' about it.  To me, in this day and age and compared to that end result, 'minimalism' as such is a secondary and less important consideration.

Peter

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

 At some point, the most important factor needs to be considered--what is the best possible layout that can be built on that particular site! I would hope most golfers would prefer a superior golf course that involved earthmoving over a layout that is minimal for minimalism's sake.  Sebonack is a great piece of land, but there were factors, as Tom stated, that required some earthmoving.  Give him a site like Dismal River, and a minimalism dream comes true.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

I might take issue, albeit in the fine print, with your statement about the "best possible layout".

To a degree, the site was compromised by concessions, internal and external.

I've often wondered, what the course would look like had Tom had first dibs on an uncompromised site.

And, I've often wondered how two courses might have looked on an uncompromised site.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Patrick,
I was writing in general terms in response to the point on minimalism.  Personally, I find Sebonack to be a great course that is far short of its potential.  I think there are quite a few bunkers that need to be removed, and a couple of greens that could use some tweaking. And the 8th hole seems more at home at the Bears Club than in Southampton.  3-5 and 10-12 are all-world, and I could enjoy playing those holes forever!

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

I was thinking about the site in it's natural form, absent buildings, parking lots and concessions to the town and college.

I was always fascinated by the potential to route holes down to the water to the west.

A 36 hole complex on that terrain would have been interesting even if permitting would make it impossible

[Tom_Doak]

RMD,

I was thinking about the site in it's natural form, absent buildings, parking lots and concessions to the town and college.

I was always fascinated by the potential to route holes down to the water to the west.

A 36 hole complex on that terrain would have been interesting even if permitting would make it impossible

Patrick:

I don't know if there would have been enough room for 36 holes even without environmental restrictions.  But considering that the wetlands on the west end that you refer to were cut off by a public road and had a 125-foot no-clearing buffer around them, your fascination would have been short-lived. 

And, as to RMD's dislike of certain holes, sometimes clients and superintendents get their say, too.  There had to be a big pond (and another, smaller one) for irrigation purposes, and the guy who was paying us wanted a difficult par-3 that played over it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

I completely get, "if you take the King's schilling, you do the King's bidding"

I was always curious, with NGLA right next door, why Mike didn't try to emulate removing the parking lot to another location.
Ditto the cabins.  At night, you can't see a thing, and during the day, you're playing golf.
Metedeconk offset the cabins down into remote areas of the golf course and I was surprised that Mike didn't do the same thing.

But, it is what it is and I think the exposure and praise you got on National TV was terrific

[Joe Bausch]

Note, Universal HD is rebroadcasting the final round of the US Open at Sebonack this morning at 7 AM ET as well as tomorrow (Wed) at 9 PM.

If you have Comcast for cable, you almost certainly have Universal.  Not sure how popular of a channel that is on other providers.