[John Percival]

Dear GCAers,
Am interested in everyone's opinion...
...what is the 'best' hole u can think of that challenges Tour Pros and is fair/playable for the average player? And...
...what is the 'un-best' hole u can think of that challenges Tour Pros and is unfair/unplayable for the average player?
To start the process:
   Best - 18 @ Doral. Great test and tournament closer (what's DT gonna do to it?). Great closer for resort guests w/ bail room and 'easy bogey'
   Un-best - 12 @ ANGC. Great Amen Corner centerpiece. But that skinny green over the hazard must eat members' and guests' lunch. And it's
                  even harder from the drop area. Forget the camera during the Masters. Would love to watch Joe Average tackle this mini-brute.

After some time, how 'bout we assemble an 18 from each category?

[jeffwarne]

John,
Welcome

18 at Doral? where's the bail area on the drive for Joe average?
I nominate 13 at ANGC-great for pros and fans, easy for the average golfer

worst
17 TPC

[John Percival]

John,
Welcome

18 at Doral? where's the bail area on the drive for Joe average?
I nominate 13 at ANGC-great for pros and fans, easy for the average golfer

worst
17 TPC

Jeff,
There is a lot or room in all those palms and even more on the approach. Sure, a tee ball could nestle next to a trunk, but more likely a lay-up/out and then a shortish approach still made puckerish by the water.
And ur right, 17 TPC is just a b***h to all.

[jeffwarne]

John,
I spent a lot of time in those palms in 10 years at Doral

[John Percival]

J,
And those palms are what make the hole so exciting for the Tour event. Since the boys are so good, they can go for the green from that side, but it brings the water into play that much more. In fact, if u charted plays from there on lay-ups vs 'going for its', u would probably find a lower stroke average on the lay-ups. Those guys are just great w/ wedges. But they are so wired to be aggressive, that the lake just sits there waiting and smiling  .

[Jim Nugent]

Best for pro's and playable for bogey:  16 at CPC

Best for pro's and damn hard for bogey:  15 at ANGC

[Ross Tuddenham]

Jim

CPC has not been on the tour since the early 90's when it refused to change some unsavory membership policies.


challenges Tour Pros and is fair/playable for the average player?  10th Riviera

challenges Tour Pros and is unfair/unplayable for the average player? 16th Muirfield Village. I am not sure the 17th at sawgrass really challenges the players as it has an average of 3.06 compared to 3.35 for Muirfield Village's 16th this season.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim

CPC has not been on the tour since the early 90's when it refused to change some unsavory membership policies.


challenges Tour Pros and is fair/playable for the average player?  10th Riviera

challenges Tour Pros and is unfair/unplayable for the average player? 16th Muirfield Village. I am not sure the 17th at sawgrass really challenges the players as it has an average of 3.06 compared to 3.35 for Muirfield Village's 16th this season.

Russ, I knew that, but as you say, CPC 16 has been a tour hole, played by thousands of golfers during the tournament, pro and amateur.  Besides, the title did not require current tour holes... John's original post said nothing about that... and I do think 16 is a great example. 

PS:  10 at Riviera was my next choice.  10 at Belfry is another good hole for pro's and average players. 

Even if the average is around par, 17 at Sawgrass has ruined more than one pro golfer's tournament win hopes.  Potential for some very big scores, coming down the stretch at one of pro golf's biggest events.  So I would include it. 

[Jordan Standefer]

Best: #3 at Torrey Pines (South) Par 3

It's one of those tough to judge downhill/into the wind shots that can be played from a variety of tees with a protective front bunker and a two tiered green.  However, there is a generous bailout area short and right that can make bogey relatively easy for your average golfer.

Un-best: #4 at Spyglass Hill Par 4

That green is tough enough for the pros to hit.  I can only imagine how many doubles, triples, and quads that hole sees every other week of the year.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Jim, not sure why I assumed it had to be current but if I want to be a little picky would it be fair to say we don't know how the current prov1 equipped pro's would handle CPC's 16th?

Or would it enhance the playing characteristics of the hole for them?

[Connor Dougherty]

Un-best: #4 at Spyglass Hill Par 4

I actually would put that in the "better" category. That green is wild and it's tough for the pros to hit, but it's a hole of shorter length and it bowls up toward the middle of the green. Falls in the "very hard par but easy bogey" category for me.

[Jud_T]

Best-  TOC #11 (RIP)

Worst- any hole with a 200 yard carry.

[John Percival]

Best: #3 at Torrey Pines (South) Par 3

It's one of those tough to judge downhill/into the wind shots that can be played from a variety of tees with a protective front bunker and a two tiered green.  However, there is a generous bailout area short and right that can make bogey relatively easy for your average golfer.

Un-best: #4 at Spyglass Hill Par 4

That green is tough enough for the pros to hit.  I can only imagine how many doubles, triples, and quads that hole sees every other week of the year.
J,
#4 @ Spyglass is a great example. Made a huge impression on me. Saw the pics numerous times before playing it, yet was stunned at how thin the green is and even more shocked by the closeness and amount of iceplant next to the green (wonder if they ever considered widening the  green?)

[Scott Sander]

Not a regular tour stop, but the LPGA, Senior USGA, and PGA have all been there in the last 5 years:  #13 at Crooked Stick gives the pros fits but is quite playable for the rest of us.  "They" have trouble because it's short enough (by comparison) that they go flag hunting to pins that have to be reached with rollout - and if the execution is bad or location misjudged, you'll end up on the opposite side of the green or off the back right with an awkward chip.  They also seem to hate the left hole location that can be hidden from the tee.
For the rest of us - the middle is wide open.  (Actually, the middle is wide open for the pros, too...  but I think(?) they think capitulation off the tee there amounts to backing up relative to the rest of the field.

18 at TPC Silvis.   On a course that doesn't have many awkward looks, the tee shot at 18 is -really- uncomfortable with trees where your eye wants to go on the right and sand and water left and long.  It has proven to provide some nice drama for the Tour event there.  But it's a HARD tee shot however you choose to play it, and it's such a thematic shift for the course that I don't love it for the "rest" of us.  That said, I do NOT think it's unplayable or unfair... just unfun.

[Matthew Petersen]

Un-best: #4 at Spyglass Hill Par 4

I actually would put that in the "better" category. That green is wild and it's tough for the pros to hit, but it's a hole of shorter length and it bowls up toward the middle of the green. Falls in the "very hard par but easy bogey" category for me.

"Easy" bogey?

I played there last summer with three other folks who all fit decidedly into the average category, at various points in that continuum. I made a frankly very nifty up and down one-putt par. Everyone else in my group took a minimum of four putts.

[Connor Dougherty]

Un-best: #4 at Spyglass Hill Par 4

I actually would put that in the "better" category. That green is wild and it's tough for the pros to hit, but it's a hole of shorter length and it bowls up toward the middle of the green. Falls in the "very hard par but easy bogey" category for me.

"Easy" bogey?

I played there last summer with three other folks who all fit decidedly into the average category, at various points in that continuum. I made a frankly very nifty up and down one-putt par. Everyone else in my group took a minimum of four putts.

Couldn't the same be said for many of the putting greens that we love on here? That hole is really difficult with a front pin, but I don't think that the greens' contours are too severe there. The green speeds can sometimes be, but I've enjoyed that hole every time I've played it, and I haven't seen anyone struggle with it like the rest of your group.

[Matthew Petersen]

Un-best: #4 at Spyglass Hill Par 4

I actually would put that in the "better" category. That green is wild and it's tough for the pros to hit, but it's a hole of shorter length and it bowls up toward the middle of the green. Falls in the "very hard par but easy bogey" category for me.

"Easy" bogey?

I played there last summer with three other folks who all fit decidedly into the average category, at various points in that continuum. I made a frankly very nifty up and down one-putt par. Everyone else in my group took a minimum of four putts.

Couldn't the same be said for many of the putting greens that we love on here? That hole is really difficult with a front pin, but I don't think that the greens' contours are too severe there. The green speeds can sometimes be, but I've enjoyed that hole every time I've played it, and I haven't seen anyone struggle with it like the rest of your group.

To varying degrees, though certainly that is a unique green. One of the issues is not only that's it's hard to hit on account of being so skinny, but that the tiers are quite severe. It's not terribly hard to putt once you're on the right level, but large tiers like that in a green are something I see less skilled players struggle with to a great extent, and that green complex is severe enough that even chip shots will very often find the lowest tier.

[Connor Dougherty]

Matthew, that's a fair statement, the slightest inaccuracies on shots can coast all the way down to the bottom of the green when they get faster.

Many have suggested widening that green, but I love the bowl characteristics of it and how unique it is. What if spyglass didn't use the front tongue for pin placements and seldom used the middle one? Would that make it a better hole?

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