Forget Restoration - What 10 holes would you redesign ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In the restoration thread someone mentioned that they had hoped that a hole had been altered.

What 10 holes would you redesign, and how would you redesign them ?

[Three_Putt]

#8 at Quaker Ridge.  Not sure what I would do but think it is the one poor hole on the course.

#4 on WF East.  Why do I feel like Tillinghast's par-fives were never the equal of his 4s and 3s?

[Three_Putt]

Bel-Air #7: Just a weak hole by comparison to the others, in my opinion.

Maidstone #2: without the fescue that has really popped this year, i think the hole is pretty weak.

Atlantic #13: I'd change the hole to a long 3-par or a drivable 4-par and keep the green on the same side of the clubhouse as 97% of the course.  That darn hole is responsible for extending the length of a round and making you walk through the parking lot.

[Three_Putt]

might just be me but i never know what to hit and find both sides of the fairway to be way too thin.  if i lay it back short, i'm totally blind.  just seems a touch out of character with the balance of the deisgn - i do love the golf couse, though.

[Nigel_Walton]

Central hazards make one think, which is good.
 I am told that most players can carry the mounds on number eight at Quaker Ridge with current equipment. A shame.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

The Road Hole,

I would blow up the hotel.

I would add a bunker about 30 yards short-right of the green.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jeremy -- With all due respect, I think the hotel -- as intrusive as it may seem -- is what elevates the Road hole from being a great par 4 to the most memorable par 4 in golf (along with #8 at Pebble Beach, anyway.)

Take out the hotel and you remove the psychological imperative to steer your ball left, which is not the best line for the approach shot. As the hole exists now, it takes a leap of faith to drive the ball where you're supposed to.

I wouldn't advocate building holes like this on purpose -- but then again, maybe I would. A new course named Logger's Trail opened east of St. Paul this summer (co-designed by former U.S. Am champ John Harris, among others) that features a dogleg left par 4 around the foundation of an old barn, which blocks your view of the green and the left side of the hole. They could have taken out that foundation and given you a look at the fairway and green, but I like the hole better as it is. If you don't have the nerve to hit it over the foundation, a good drive is going to run through the fairway and into the very thick rough on the right side. One hole like this out of 18 -- or out of hundreds that you play each summer -- isn't a bad idea at all.

[Jim_Michaels]

For the sake of sacrilege, 18 at National. The tee should be across the road by the entrance gate and the hole should be routed along the water. Current 18 is not strategic. Going over the bunker off the tee accomplishes almost nothing. Second shot is semi-blind. Green is one of least interesting on the course. Let's blow it up!

[Nigel_Walton]

Madness.

[Three_Putt]

iconoclastic!  

[Mike_Golden]

#4 at Lake Merced-there are only 3 people on the planet who think it's a good hole-unfortunately, one of them is the architect and the other 2 essentially run the Greens committee

For those who haven't played the golf course, here are the problems with the hole (it plays 410, par 4 from the Blues, about 440 from the Blacks and is almost more fair from the Blacks because you have a flat lie and can hit a full wood to the green):

1.  Hidden bunker off the right side of the fairway just over the uphill off the tee.
2.  Downhill lies from about 180 to 150 from the green with a green significantly elevated.
3.  Huge bunker just below the green so any kind of runup is impossible.
4.  Green slopes drastically from back to front, right to left
5.  Large bunker behind the green which makes it tough to just play long

I'm sure I could find a few more things to criticize if I wanted too...for those of you who have played the hole, what changes would you make (I have some good ideas myself)?

[John_Conley]

Ten Joe Lee par 5s should have a lock on making this list.  Here are four to start with:

#3 Palisades
#17 Ekana (a/k/a Twin Rivers)
#3 and #10 Interlachen

All need more room in the landing areas for the second shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Michaels (aka ?)

With posts like that I completely understand why you've chosen to hide your email address.

Might I also recommend having someone taste you food and start your car each morning.

Three Putt,

You were critical of the 10th hole at Atlantic, but the moment I put you behind the controls of a D-8 all you want to do is tinker with # 13.  What happened to # 10 ?

I always felt that # 13 would be better as # 18 due to the walk, but then again, some of the walks at Bandon Dunes are no bargains either.

[Three_Putt]

sorry pat, thought i responded.  take out all the bunkers on #10 at Atlantic.  the fairway pinching in at 260 ish is stupid.  why should i have to lay up short with a 3-wood or long iron so that i can have 230 + uphill into a par-5 green complex?  if i hit the driver i either need to hit it 290 in the air (to carry the bunker) or fit it into a neck no more than 15 yds wide.  i once asked Rees about the whole and his comment to me was equally nonsensical, "it tuned out 15 yds too long."  just blow out the bunkers and reward someone for 2 quality shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Three Putt,

I would move the fairway bunkers into the hill on the left, or right, or both, widen the fairway in the LZ and move the fronting greenside bunker to the left of the green.

I had heard that the preservation of the hole in its current form was to retain a very difficult hole on the golf course.

Will I see you at the Fescue ?

[ChipOat]

Jim Michaels:

#18 at National may not be as totally strategic as originally conceived due to the ability of many to carry that bunker because of equipment "improvements", but:
1) not strategic at all?
2) no advantage to carrying the bunker?
3) blow it up?

No way on any of those IMO.

You'd create quite a stir if you took your post and made it a thread all by itself.

[Norbert P]

 #9 Bandon Dunes could be a GGRREEAATT hole on the level of #14 at St. Andrews Old (gasp) if BD incorporated the old driving/practice range as an alternate fairway.  Knock down the containment mounding on the right edge of existing fairway and you've got a fairway F A T T E R  than Fife.   Then add some hazardous stuff.  Shaken, not stirred.

 

[Norbert P]

  Also, at #18 Machrihanish, modify the catch basin at the back of the green.  It certainly isn't natural anyway and could very easily be reshaped artistically while retaining its purpose.  After playing such a wonderfully natural course, one has to wonder at that final contrived shape.   The best cure is to go back and tee it up at The Battery.  
 

[Neil Regan]

Slag,
  Did you know that Machrihanish 18th green used to be up next to the first tee ? Returning it there or nearby is a perennial topic for discussion.
  In more recent times, the 18th had palm (!) trees girding it. They lasted until the first good blow.

Neil

[Three_Putt]

Three Putt,

I would move the fairway bunkers into the hill on the left, or right, or both, widen the fairway in the LZ and move the fronting greenside bunker to the left of the green.

I had heard that the preservation of the hole in its current form was to retain a very difficult hole on the golf course.

Will I see you at the Fescue ?

You will indeed, sir.  I look forward to it.  

[Jim_Michaels]

chipoat,

The question of this thread is intended to be somewhat inflammatory, isn't it? I don't believe 18 at National is as good as it would be if the hole played along the bay. That's all. You guys are a tough crowd.  What is the benefit of risking the carry over the bunker. If one can hit the ball 280 or so, the green is reachable from over the bunker or over on the right and still pretty much blind from either side. The view and lie are slightly better on the left. But enough to justify the risk? That is what is flawed about the strategy of the hole. It's a fine hole, but the terrain to the right is pretty spectacular.

[ChipOat]

Jim Michaels:

My experience is that if you hit it long enough to clear that left bunker, a straight or pushed tee ball to the right of the bunker will end up in the grunch.

Hole plays longer from the right side anyway given the prevailing left-to-right wind - especially in the afternoon when the breeze is (usually) up.

The green does appear benign in terms of contouring, but the wind is a huge factor in putting and, especially, chipping on that hole.  Downwind chips from the left collection area can be anywhere from dicey to downright dangerous.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Michaels,

Where would the green be under your design ?

[Jim_Michaels]

Good question Pat,

I would imagine somewhere near the current practice tee.

[Jeff Fortson]

Can we change 13 holes instead of 10?

If so, numbers 6-18 at Spyglass.

Jeff F.