[JimB]

I've heard this several times from caddies at Cypress Point describing putts that go to the ocean and are faster than they look on the 6th, 11th and 13th greens. I have always been a bit skeptical of the explanation and I am thinking now it has more to do with how the greens are placed up against the dunes with the overall slope of the land working west. When those greens are looked at from in front they appear to slope back to front but looked at from the side I think they are actually fairly level. There is a similar effect on the 7th, 11th and 12th greens at the Valley Cub of Montecito. The question I have is how much of this is MacKenzie's doing by green placement and what role might Hunter have played in how he shaped the greens? Of course I could just be all wrong and it is the grain!

[David Bartman]

Today's greens are mostly too closely mown to have much grain, especially bent grass or poa annua.  However,  99/100 grain on bermuda greens is downhill

[JimB]

Today's greens are mostly too closely mown to have much grain, especially bent grass or poa annua. 

Yes. I never found much grain in the poa greens at CPC. Hard to believe it's the major reason for what is seen on those greens.

[cary lichtenstein]

3 green at pebble beach

[Mark Bourgeois]

My suggestion, possibly unhelpful but offered  in earnest, would be to learn to read slope with your feet and forget your eyes. I am serious about this. Mackenzie greens are murder on eye reading.

Then go back to CPC and see what feet tell you.

If pedi-reading proves too difficult then just let me know next time you head out there and I'll be happy to tag along. I generally am on call for this sort if thing Mondays through Sundays but I require at least 8 hours advance notice owing to the vagaries of transcontinental travel.

Helpfully,

[Jordan Wall]

I've seen putts on #4 move to the back of the green.

6 is also pretty deceiving.

Reading the greens at Cypress is no easy task.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well well well, the USWO throws "Tom Doak" off the grid fir the first time in forever and here comes "Jordan Wall" online for the first time in forever.

[JimB]

My suggestion, possibly unhelpful but offered  in earnest, would be to learn to read slope with your feet and forget your eyes. I am serious about this. Mackenzie greens are murder on eye reading.

Then go back to CPC and see what feet tell you.

Good suggestion and this is something I use to help read greens. In this case I actually know the speed pretty well now and just trying to figure out if it's the "grain" like the caddies say or more likely  in my mind a MacKenzie trick of the eye. I'm pretty sure it's the latter and adds to my worship of all things MacKenzie. I do want to give Hunter some credit though if his shaping skills deserve it as well.

Any other examples of greens that are up against smaller land forms that conflict with the overall slope of the propeerty and result in this type of trickery?

[JimB]

6 is also pretty deceiving.

Doh! Yes, I meant to post 6 not 7. Fixed that.

[Josh Tarble]

Perhaps it's an effect the ODGs used more frequently than not. I know at my home club (a Ross). We have on green that seems like it should slope extremely back to front, but because its built up on a slope feeding the opposite way, it is closer to flat. THe green is an absolute nightmare to read, but it's a really cool complex.

[Matthew Runde]

My suggestion, possibly unhelpful but offered  in earnest, would be to learn to read slope with your feet and forget your eyes. I am serious about this. Mackenzie greens are murder on eye reading.

Then go back to CPC and see what feet tell you.

If pedi-reading proves too difficult then just let me know next time you head out there and I'll be happy to tag along. I generally am on call for this sort if thing Mondays through Sundays but I require at least 8 hours advance notice owing to the vagaries of transcontinental travel.

Helpfully,

I've been using my feet to read greens over the past year or so.  My visual reading is pretty accurate, though, so I tend to use my feet only if the slopes are very subtle.

[JimB]

We have on green that seems like it should slope extremely back to front, but because its built up on a slope feeding the opposite way, it is closer to flat. THe green is an absolute nightmare to read, but it's a really cool complex.

Yes, I think that's all you really need, the slope of the green a bit against the the overall slope of the land. The examples I have ben thinking of all have a hill, dune or other land form that they are built into so it gets even trickier I think. I do think it makes for really cool green complexes.

[JimB]

6 is also pretty deceiving.

Come to think of it this is the first place I heard the quote. It is amazing how well the ball rolls out on putts that look uphill into a back to front green but are going in the direction of the overall slope towards the ocean.

[Kevin Lynch]

Any other examples of greens that are up against smaller land forms that conflict with the overall slope of the propeerty and result in this type of trickery?

Lookout Point is a Walter Travis design located in Southern Ontario, about 15 minutes from Niagara Falls.  The overall impact of the Niagara Escarpment creates multiple counter-intuitive breaks during the round. 

A few GCAers joined Ian Andrew for a round and on the 4th, we faced "uphill" putts from the right to left of the green.  Until Ian said "you realize that's a downhill putt, right?"  Of course, Ian was right as overall slope of the property trumped the appearance of the hole.   His warnings saved us from multiple 3 putts during the round.

[Mike Schott]

I had a tough time putting the holes returning to the clubhouse on the back nine at Rustic Canyon. The entire course slopes from north to south and even though the regulars I played with told me this, I could not bring myself to hit chips and putts easy enough to stay below the hole as the approaches looked uphill to me.

[Jason Topp]

When I have heard this description it has usually been in the context of sloping property and a putt that looks uphill but is not due to surrounding slope. 

I heard this many times in Palm Springs for example.  I don't think it was grain.  I think it was slope.

[Jordan Wall]

I found many instances where putts going to the back of 6 and 11 rolled out much more than I thought they would.

Similarly, I saw many putts going towards the front of those greens ending up well short.

While I don't know (and don't think for the matter) that grain plays a big role if any at Cypress, it is interesting to note both of those greens approach the same direction: toward the ocean. 


Relative to what Mike said, I found the same difficulty in reading greens at the back 9 at Rustic Canyon.  Anyone else?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

On seaside courses don't forget the effect of the tide.

[Jordan Wall]

In the case of 6 and 11 at Cypress the green is actually slower than it looks going away from the ocean.

[JimB]

When I have heard this description it has usually been in the context of sloping property and a putt that looks uphill but is not due to surrounding slope. 

Seems like that is the consensus here. I thought it was interesting how the caddies explained it but I never believed it. Of the places mentioned by name here there is that overall slope for at least portions of the property that is a real attribute. Of the ones mentioned that I have played, CPC has the slope from five green down to 14 fairway, Valley Club has the valley holes East of Sheffield which have a gentle slope from 6 to one green and Rustic has the canyon that has an overall slope north to south.

I think the design is pulled off best when the green is canted in that zone where it looks uphill but plays level or perhaps slightly downhill. I think from the MacKenzie holes listed above that he liked to use a land form behind the green to help with the camouflage but playing Rustic shows this can be utilized to great effect without one.

[JimB]

Relative to what Mike said, I found the same difficulty in reading greens at the back 9 at Rustic Canyon.  Anyone else?

During my last play our group had this discussion, but not just the back nine. Everything goes "down canyon". Two of us had been at Valley Club a couple days before where everything goes "down valley". It was a nice comparison and hard to get used to despite knowing.

[Bill_McBride]

I've heard this several times from caddies at Cypress Point describing putts that go to the ocean and are faster than they look on the 6th, 11th and 13th greens. I have always been a bit skeptical of the explanation and I am thinking now it has more to do with how the greens are placed up against the dunes with the overall slope of the land working west. When those greens are looked at from in front they appear to slope back to front but looked at from the side I think they are actually fairly level. There is a similar effect on the 7th, 11th and 12th greens at the Valley Cub of Montecito. The question I have is how much of this is MacKenzie's doing by green placement and what role might Hunter have played in how he shaped the greens? Of course I could just be all wrong and it is the grain!

6 at Cypress Point has a very strong back to front slope.  I was incredulous when the caddie gave me a 5' break on a 20' putt from left center to right center.   When I made it I became a believer!     The 17th green at Bandon Dunes has a similar slope that isn't obvious when you look at it from below.  

I think those slopes at the Valley Club are due to an angled "valley effect," much like Rustic Canyon.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

On seaside courses don't forget the effect of the tide.

Mark, I never heard that before.

[Joe Hancock]

On seaside courses don't forget the effect of the tide.

Mark, I never heard that before.

I'd love to hear the scientific explanation of that theory.

Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joe, the key is knowing where the moon is before you putt.

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