Wicker Baskets vs. Flags...how many strokes difference @ Merion?

[William_G]

As inherent have flags have become to golf, the Wicker Basket is an architectural feature to help protect the course/par.

How many strokes at Merion does it save the course or would it save at other courses?

[Sam Morrow]

Interesting question, Chris Cupit might be the person to answer this question.

[Thomas Dai]

They sure cost Lee Westwood a shot or so earlier in the week!

All the best.

[William_G]

seems like it might have cost the guys a shot each round with the wind being a bit hard to judge, especially on #3

[Brad Tufts]

I can't say I have ever paid much attention to a pin flag to determine wind direction or strengh.  I look at trees and the environment, and throw up some grass sometimes.  I would doubt the pros at Merion are lamenting the lack of flags.

I would say that the flagsticks look to be much firming than many at other courses, as a bunch of shots throughout the tournament caromed off the hard surface more than a regular flagstick with some give.

[Patrick_Mucci]

ZERO

[William_G]

0.0? 

[Mark Bourgeois]

But there WERE flags at Merion: above the grandstands, on TV cranes, in tent cities...

[William_G]

Mark,

How about for member play?

Thanks

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,

How about for member play?

Thanks

There are trees all over the course (very few in play), and the course is very open so there are few "swirling" winds. Thus, you can feel the wind. The flag pole at the clubhouse is huge.

An argument can be made that the baskets and the thicker poles are much easier to see and aid the golfer more than a nylon flag on top of a skinny pole. I think the poles are a little bit longer too, but that is a guess.

[William_G]

interesting 

[Ed Brzezowski]

ZERO

I must agree with Mr. Green ink, there was no affect on scoring having baskets.
At the Open there were an abundance of flags etc. to show the wind. Just look at the blimp, it always seems to be pointed into the wind when possible.
During member play the caddies know the wind as do the majority of members. Just check the clubhouse flag for half the holes. Up on the far reaches of 5/6/7 you can watch the trees. Plus you can usually see a sand cloud or two coming from some agressive bunker play.
I was there, some of the poor play was from improper club selection or just playing stupid. imho.

[Jason Topp]

Zero - flags rarely tell you much, especially if there are trees around.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

i seem to remember there was a quote attibuted to Hogan that Merion was the only course where every hole plays into the wind.  Or am i just making that up?

[JSlonis]

I agree with Pat 100%.  They have no effect on scoring.  Especially this week because there were several USGA flags on every single grandstand.

[ChipOat]

The wickers themselves probably have zero effect, but the flagstick often has a (negative) impact).

Because the baskets are heavier than a flag, the flagstick itself is fairly thick metal as opposed to the "usual" thinner fiberglass construction.  Unless your shot from off the green - even the shortest chip - is a true Nelson Rockefeller (i.e. dying in the hole), hitting that metal flagstick ensures that the ball will not go in.

That is why Bones Mackay tended the "flag" on the 72nd hole yesterday.

[William_G]

sounds good everyone

FWIW, I am not looking for "agreement" here, just discussion

so if you couldn't see the clubhouse, or there were no trees; the visual for wind would be the clouds,or grass you picked up and threw into the air

back when the course was new, were there lots of trees or was it mostly barren hillside?

were golf balls originally more susceptible to wind than those of today and thus wind direction/force more salient?

is the wicker a architectural feature that has had it's day?

I think the first wickers I saw were at Norman's Experience at Koele, not sure



thanks

[Chris Cupit]

As most know my course uses wickers that we make ourselves and I have spent a little time looking into the history of wicker baskets.

Merion was not the first (I need to double check that), only or last club to use wicker baskets though certainly the most famous.  And, Wm Flynn did hold at least one (and I think several) patents on the particular baskets used at Merion.

When we re-did my course I wanted an old "retro" look and I really wanted something unique on top of the flag stick.  I looked at flags, penants, streamers, nothing , as well as various shapes (balls, pyramids, until finally coming across an advertisement in an old Stumpf's Catalogue for "Wicker Balloon Baskets".  

They were mass produced and available for sale through catalogs for $7.50.  (A scan from the catalogue is below).  The advertisement stressed their visibility and I really beleive the baskets help a player see and locate his target.  I think the "deceiving the player re: inability to determine the wind" is a bunch of BS.  I think the baskets were intended as an aid for players on inland courses where a usual lack of wind results in flags that normally hang pretty limp and are hard to see.    

Anyway, when we decided on a type of basket I called Merion.  They were extremely gracious but declined to say who nmade their baskets.  I certainly understand as they must get dozens of calls a year about this.  Anyway after contracting a couple from South Carolina for our first baskets, we now have a pretty good method that entails us buying the wicker, soaking it in water and then weaving it ourselves in the winter.  They are all hand done, have a slightly different weave from Merion, are larger and we paint ours a visible yellow.

Sea Island uses a basket similar in size to Merion and the same color though their weave was not particularly sturdy or attractive to me.

Southerness south of Atlanta was a course owned by a Merion member a while back and back then they used wickers.

San Francisco Golf CLub also used wickers at one point in their history and I have actually sent them one of my baskets so that they could look into them a little more.  (I think they had blue or navy baskets though I am not sure I remember the conversation that well).

Anyway, Merion and wicker baskets are synonymous and they should be.  But as in most things, there is a little more to the story  

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Trouble uploading to photobucket     Catalog pic to come asap

[Chris Cupit]

Here is a picture of the ad from the Stumpp $ Walter Catalog:

[Chris Cupit]

I guess I should say that I don't think the baskets versus flags make much of a scoring difference.  As a player I would rather have a great visual target, particualrly with my wedges versus a flag that may give me some additional info re: the wind. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Would smoking a cigarette be considered a forbidden aid? If so, that might be why Hogan was invariably wihout one when on the course.

Okay, I know it couldn't determine wind direction and strength 200 yards away but it might help.

Bob

[Chris Cupit]

Would smoking a cigarette be considered a forbidden aid? If so, that might be why Hogan was invariably wihout one when on the course.

Okay, I know it couldn't determine wind direction and strength 200 yards away but it might help.

Bob

Hmmm.  I can't imagine the casual act of smoking to be a breach but I could see a breach if a player or caddie, for the sole purpose of determing wind direction, lit a cigarette (or anything else) to create smoke.

[William_G]

Thanks Chris!

[Matthew Petersen]

I think the first wickers I saw were at Norman's Experience at Koele, not sure

When would that have been? I was there ... 4(?) years ago and they had flags. The Nicklaus course down by the ocean had wind socks, which was both clever and practical at that site.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Because the baskets are heavier than a flag, the flagstick itself is fairly thick metal as opposed to the "usual" thinner fiberglass construction.  Unless your shot from off the green - even the shortest chip - is a true Nelson Rockefeller (i.e. dying in the hole), hitting that metal flagstick ensures that the ball will not go in.

This is an excellent observation. How many "rocket clankers" did we see? Seems a fair amount. Even Stefani on 17 Sunday rattled the stick a little before picking out his ball, like he was afraid it could hit the stick and bounce out.