[Patrick_Mucci]

Watching last nights telecast from the Bridges and noticing the measured swing and ball speeds and the distances the drives were hit, and recognizing the ehanced distance most golfers now enjoy, at what distance does an architect design a reachable par 5 today, for every level of golfer ?

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, how can you answer that without several assumptions?  Prevailing wind, uphill or down, straight or doglegged, terrain in the LZ, slopes on green approach, general maintenance meld firmness of ground?

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ Daley,

If you feel that you're incapable of answering the question, just say so.  

For every prevailing wind in a favoring direction, the same wind can be unfavorable, for every downhill, there is an uphill.

You can be an obstructionist or expediter, the choice is yours.

[Bill_McBride]

At what length do you design a par 5 reachable for every level of golfer?

Think about that one, Pat.  Every level?  My wife can't hit a tee ball over 150 yds or a three wood over 130.  You could never design a reachable par 5 for her.

I hit the occasional 280 yd drive and 225 yd spoon.  I guess 505 for my level of golfer.  But if it's 505 uphill, forget about it.  If it's 530 downhill, maybe so.

Too many levels, too many parameters, too many variables to answer your question.

Now if you want to know what distance to design for those guys last night:  LONG!  Ever since Daly reached #17 Baltusrol in the Open a few years ago, I've decided there are no unreachable par 5's for the longer hitting pros.

[BCrosby]

Seems to me that your question has two inseparable parts. What is the max length of a par 4 and what is the minimum length of a par 5? Can't answer one without the other.

On the down and dirty assumption that everyone is hitting it about 10% farther than they were in 1985 (supporting data provided on demand), and assuming that we want to use 1985 as a baseline for the "appropriate" distance max/mins, then to set holes today that play to the same relative length as they did in 1985, the max length of a par 4 goes from, say, 485 yds in 1985 to 533 yds today.

Which sounds about right to me for modern players. At that length TW, DLIII, et al. have to hit long iron approaches. What a long par 4 should require.

It would follow that reachable par 5's begin at a yardage in excess of 533 yds.

Anything shorter - all things being equal - will play as a par 4, given the lengths the moderns hit the ball.

If I'm right, or even close to right, all but a very few courses are obsolete - at least in terms of length.

Which, again, sounds about right to me.

Bob

[RJ_Daley]

Jeezus Pat, I thought I was asking unbiased and relavant questions.  I'm totally incapable of answering as you posed the question.  Rather than obstruct, I'll expedite.

recognizing the ehanced distance most golfers now enjoy, at what distance does an architect design a reachable par 5 today, for every level of golfer ?

With assumptions, windless, straight corridor, flat LZ enhanced distance = about 240-280 solid drive for average competent golfer, and no such thing as competent lower level of skill golfer (who could never legitimately reach any par 5) and design intent for another solid fairway metal of 225-245 with landing just short of green and run-up on firm approach, with opening on apron to do so, I'd say 510-25?  How you mention last nights Bridges (I only saw last 4 holes) in same breath as "every level of golfer" is completely beyond me... I am sir, incapable...

[ForkaB]

I'm feeling inadequate.  It takes me at least 2 shots to reach par 5's, even the 500 yard or so variety.  If some 5's are now reachable in one, I think I need a new driver, or at least some Viagra..........

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

The every level of golfer was a "tee marker" reference.
There are ladies tees, senior tees, member tees, championship tees, etc., etc..

# 17 at Baltusrol has been lengthened considerably, as has
# 12 at Winged Foot West.

While the LZ at Baltusrol is fairly benign, the LZ at WFW is bumpy and canted.

RJDaley,

You're astute enough to know that it wasn't a "site specific" question, but a general question in the context of the distances that all level of players are hitting the ball today, from the various tee markers created to cater to each level of golfer.

One of the topics we have discussed on GCA, is retaining the challenge and the fun of playing golf, and a reachable par 5, for all levels of golfers (tee marker oriented) certainly fits the above.

I thought that your initial questions were totally unbiased  ,
unfortunately, I thought they were also totally irrelevant  

I made no definitive statements, open to question or challenge,
I just asked a simple question which you chose to deem unanswerable, choosing to make the question site specific, which is wasn't.  

You are capable of abstract thinking, yes ?

[Michael Dugger]

Classic Mucci

I don't think the average golfer hits his driver 250 all that often.  Maybe once or twice in 18 holes.  Maybe when they get a big bounce or the hole is playing downwind.  Downwind helps too, of course.  

Thus, to be reachable by average Joe, I think the three shotter needs to be just shy of 500 yards.  This will require two of the average golfers best best efforts.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

If we concede, as some have suggested that there is no unreachable par 5 for the PGA Tour player, and for the average player it's approximately a 500 yard hole, what would it be for the scratch player ?

[Michael Dugger]

Reachable in two for the scratch player.

Do most scratch player crush it 300 now days?  I think not.

Most super super long players are not scratch golfers...are they?

I think a scratch guy could go 275-85 & 235-250.
thus 510-540.

[BCrosby]

If the question is only about average players, then use the old 485 yard max. A hole that long or longer is a par 5.

I've seen no evidence (other than purely anecdotal) that bogey golfers are hitting it significantly longer now than 15 years ago. Can anyone cite any studies?

For the bogey golfer, just set the tees at the yardage max/mins clubs have used for years. Rich is right, the average Joe can't hit a 500 yard hole in two. Titanium or no titanium.

It seems to me the more interesting question is how long you have to make a hole so that the second shot is a reach/reachable for the scratch player. That number has ballooned over the past 15 years.


Bob

[Dan Herrmann]

I have a different take on it - who cares what the par is?  After all, it's your score that matters, not its relation to par  

I know Eric, our Pro at French Creek has an interesting dilemna as to what to do with our #2.  It's a very long hole (464 yards) with OB right and giant fairway bunkers.  It also has a big "valley of death" just before the green.  #13 is even tougher as it's uphill and Hanse built a bunker that you could bury a VW Beetle in without any trouble.

Or look at DuPont CC in Wilmington, DE - site of the LPGA Championship.  They really only use the front tees for the Championship on one hole - #16, an amazingly short 5 par for golfers at the LPGA level.  Why do they do this - to make it exciting for the fans - it's a "birdie hole".

Are these a short 5 or a long 4?  To me, it's psychological...

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

I've seen some bogie golfers hit the ball distances formerly reserved for the scratch golfer of yesteryear.

I recently played a match against 18 and 21 handicaped players and was astonished at how far they hit it.

At Bandon Dunes I was paired with a 16 handicap who hit his big driver a mile.  This guy may have also cleaned out Jesse and Frank James with that 16 handicap.

The oversized driver heads, on longer, lighter shafts have allowed higher handicap golfers to hit long and straight drives, previoulsy unattainable in the small headed, persimmon or strata bloc, steel or ALUMINUM shafted era.

And, hitting a long ball off of a long tee with an oversized clubface is much easier than hitting the ball off of the turf.
Everybody's into power ball off the tee today.

[Dan Herrmann]

When I worked at Nike, we had an ad on TV featuring a couple of MLB pitchers who said to one another, "Chicks dig the long ball!".

Substitute "Chicks" for "Golfers" and I think you've got it....

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  Pretty much anything less than 600 yards is reachable by the big boys today.  But if you want the hole to be reachable for others, I'd suggest keeping it in the low 500's.

The third at Pacific Dunes is 499 yards.  Into the wind it's seldom reached in two; downwind I've seen a guy hit driver-8 iron.  The fifteenth is about 550 yards, but since it plays downwind I've seen it hit in two quite often by mere mortals, even by me from the blue tees!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I'd be curious to see how many golfers would attempt getting home on # 3 with the pin far, far right, and then again, maybe that is the play.

[BCrosby]

I agree generally with the Shivas numbers. (Though the "average Joe" at 250 yards is too long. The average Joe is more like 225. And maybe that is too long.)

Pat -

Yes, there is lots of anecdotal evidence that mediocre players are hitting it farther. I've got my own stories.  

The problem is that it is not showing up in scoring averages. (It does for the pros, btw. Compare the pro numbers for 1985 and 2002. Not entirely due to increased distance perhaps, but you've got to figure it is a main factor.)

Because scoring averages haven't budged for decades, I wonder if increased distance for the bogey player is "usable" distance. In other words, he's more often than not simply hitting it deeper in the woods.

Since we are operating in the realm of anecdote, consider the anecdotal evidence that a lot more bogey players are now using three woods and driving irons off the tee. Those clubs are shorter but keep the ball in the fairway. I sense that a lot of bogey golfers have figured out that an extra 20 yards may not be a good thing if you have an unpredictable ball flight. So they pick clubs at the tee accordingly. Just things I see with my friends.

I think golf has become two games (USGA protestations notwithstanding). You can define them around this issue.

There are good players who can use extra distance. They score more eagles and birdies with the new technologies. PGA stats confirm this.

And there are mediocre players for whom the extra distance doesn't help or may actually hurt. At least as measured by the scoring averages we have available. Based on my own anecdotal evidence, I think bogey golfers are starting to figure that out.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

In my own experience, I find that it is harder to "move" the ball today, that equipment and the ball require a more exaggerated effort to influence the flight of the ball.

Therefore, I conclude, that you can swing harder, with less fear of substantial ball flight deviation.

But, when the ball is on the turf, that's a more difficult shot, although perimeter weighting has helped.

I also think that many golfer focus on the "big blast" with the driver, at the expense of the rest of their game.

I can't tell you how many times when I'm at the range, that I observe golfers come to the range, and the first club they take out to practice with is their driver.

I know a lot of golfers whose handicaps went down with the acquisition of a high tech driver in the last 10 years.

Handicap creep is usually associated with age, but a lot of these fellows, in their fifties and sixties are retaining their handicap.

But, what convinced me, was an incident at Garden City Golf Club.

I was in a member-member tournament against two mid teen handicap players.  We were 1 up playing # 16.  One of our opponents hit a good drive but it ended up in the left fairway bunker about 160-170 yards from the green.  He walked into the bunker, which has a good lip, with a wood (metal).  
I turned to my partner and stated that we would probably go 2 up.  Then he hit this wood(metal) 2 feet from the hole, and made 3.  On the 17th, a par 5, he hit the green in two, made 3.  They parred the last hole, and we were done.

That couldn't have happened pre high tech.

And, it was a sign to me that high tech wasn't just helping the touring pro or scratch golfer, but every level of golfer.

I also have to confess that I have enjoyed the benefits provided by metal drivers and three woods with their longer, lighter graphite shafts.  And, I'm not about to return to my Toney Penna woods and balata balls.

[david h. carroll]

Shivas---try that when she's 8mos. pregnant and already has a 3yr old......even more fun!!

[david h. carroll]

Shivas--I still manage to come close to the international clock standards for Sat and Sun golf, but man oh man, the headache that accompanies it is growing by the second.  I've started to think that a golfer pre-nup agreement should be available to the player to be engaged!!

[david h. carroll]

Thanks, I think, for the crystal ball....part of my problem is I'm now a 2 clubber (both very close to home) so I feel like i have to play more just to justify the extra cost

[James Edwards]

I like to see variety in the par 5's say 495, 535, 570, 610 as long as the site and topography allow.

And I also like to see the shorter ones with the most strategy risk /reward options towards the end of the round so there is maximum potential to make eagle or 6 in tournaments.

Length is not important.  Have one really long one and the rest have fun with being penal!

James

p.s.  don't rake the bunkers on the approach bunkering on a par 5.

[david h. carroll]

ugh...yes on all counts, and please remember I live in the confines of Baltimore City, so public schooling is not an option!!  Probably won't opt for season golf at both clubs next year so decision time will come next spring...fyi, we're currently putting up new drapes!! CHA-CHING!!!  

[david h. carroll]

I've learned to love the silent treatment!!

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