[Jim Johnson]

I visited Apache Stronghold on May 15-16, 2013 with my wife, having very high expectations regarding the course’s architecture, routing, unique landforms and strategic elements, and very low expectations for course conditions after reading various postings on Apache Stronghold over the years.

The course’s architecture, routing, landforms, and strategy met and exceeded my expectations, and I was pleasantly surprised with the playing conditions. Yes, some of the tee boxes were in rough shape (spotty grass), and some of the 40 or so bunkers still need work, although it was obvious, from seeing earlier photos of the course on this forum, that many have been worked on, with plenty of sand in them. In particular, the central bunker in the 18th fairway had a pile of dirt in it on the Wednesday evening that we played there, and in our Thursday morning round it had been spread out, I assume as a base for a fresh load of sand. A crew of four was working on the bunkering surrounding the 18th green in that Thursday morning round.

Fairways (Bermudagrass) for the most part were in decent shape, although the 6th, with its wonderful natural contours, looked sad and the 12th had some large patches of sand and gravel in them. The greens (bentgrass) were, predominantly, in excellent condition, and rolled extremely well. The exception was the 14th, the “Redan” green, it was in really rough shape (see upcoming photos). The 17th green also had a couple of sandy spots in the middle of it. But, for the most part we thought they were in great shape. They did, however, roll fairly slow, as the height of cut seemed quite high. Scott DeBolt mentioned in March 2012 “they are going to aerify on April 2nd (2012) and I have advised them to double and even triple verticut (deep) as well as aerification and then overseed with 3 lbs./1000 of an aggressive bentgrass (T-1) … this should help matters 100%”.
  
When we arrived for our Thursday morning round we were met by “Rudy”, a member of the guest services team. Rudy seemed quite proud and knowledgeable of this Renaissance Golf design, mentioning to me that the tribe had hired a gentleman named Dave Russell in August 2012, and said that the course had seen big improvements since then. He did say, cautiously, that they have a ways to go, but said we should continue to see improving course conditions in the coming months. He mentioned that Mr. Russell was supervising the crew working around the 18th green when we arrived, but unfortunately I did not take the time after our round to visit with him as we had a 5-hour drive over to New Mexico after our game to continue our golf trip.


Apache Stronghold construction crew...


The course routing...


Clubhouse...


Rudy, guest services...


Putting green with hole #1 in background...


Short game practice area/19th hole...


Apache Stronghold scorecard...


Legend to the yardage book...



Holes to follow in the coming days...

[Jim Johnson]

GolfWeek Magazine, in 2005, ranked Apache Stronghold as the #1 Public Course in the state of Arizona. Don Mahaffey stated “the thing is, the golfers in Arizona loved the course as much as we do here on GCA. I was the super at two different courses in Arizona and at both, my members loved to go to Apache Stronghold. It was a regular trip for many of them.”

As others on Golf Club Atlas have said … “the routing, use of the topography/barrancas etc. and location of greensites are impeccable. We must do what we can to preserve this golf course no matter what … the design here is one of Doak's strongest designs … there is a super collection of greens and hole shapes at Apache.

In January 2006, Jay Flemma stated … “wow, what a design”. Jim Urbina calls it “a magical place” (note: after experiencing Apache Stronghold I understand his comment and agree completely). The esteemed Slag Bandoon had this to say: “This is my kind of course.  Natural, wild, no water, no houses, no extra anything. It's get lost golf. Safari golf. The holes are almost completely isolated from each other between the high dunes. Oops! Did I say dunes? Well, they're made of rock but they have the same feel to them … it takes you into the isolation of the desert hills … most every hole is like stepping through Dorothy's threshold to colorful Oz.   It is geologically stunning at AS and I was absolutely lost in appreciation.  It is as stunning a presentation of its environment as Pacific Dunes is of its.”

Bill McBride said it simply, “Best desert course I've ever played.  Great collection of holes that uses every feature available.” He added “I'm just saying this because sometimes I don't, spend a little time on each tee thinking about the options.  Be sure to get the yardage book before you play, it will be very helpful.  There are so many options and different lines of play.”

It’s been interesting, in doing my research on Apache Stronghold, that most of the photos and visits on Golf Club Atlas that I’ve seen and read about occurred during the winter months, when the Bermuda fairways are dormant. As Steve Shaffer has pointed out several times in Apache Stronghold threads, the course needs warmer weather for the fairways to flourish, for the Bermudagrass to bounce back from dormancy and show that nice springtime shade of green.

Jim Urbina (Apache Stronghold’s Senior Design Associate) … GolfClubAtlas Feature Interview February 2010…
This site was amazing, with so many features to work with, the Arizona desert was one of the most diverse that I had ever seen. Flowers, shrubs, trees, dry washes, and wonderful hillsides to tie into. Landforms that were easy to maneuver around and topography that allowed for the routing to move in and out of the canyons. It is a very walk able course despite the rugged looking terrain surrounding the golf site. Distant views that were easy to align the holes with and most of all the peace and quiet of 400 acres of unspoiled land. That course has the ability to expand to another 18 holes. Maybe even better than the first 18. When you get back to the holes like #5 and 6 you feel like you have been transformed in time. As good of a site as Desert Forest, Troon and The Boulders before development …

… I get calls every now and again from the Nation regarding doing some work at Apache Stronghold.  Over the years I have made trips back to check on the place and I am usually greeted with open arms.  The last time I was there it needed some work but nothing a little TLC wouldn't solve.  So I continue to wait and see if the right people embrace what they have and choose to freshen up the place.

The place is magical, teaching 80 Apache nation members how to build a golf course was one of the more enjoyable things I had ever done.   The landscape that we had to work with was unbelievable and a lot of funny stories to go around, I remember telling Neil the project manager I was going to get some videos from the GCSAA and show the crew what a golf course looked like, we took a break from the afternoon sun and went into the casino conference room and watched videos.  I even took the greens construction crew down to the local nine hole golf course to show them what a green would look like when we’re done.  I learned a lot about the Apache Way and I became a friend to a lot of the locals.  If I knew how to post pictures I would show you our construction crew.  One of the requirements of the job was that we had to hire local labor to build the golf course. I had no problem with that.  

I remember one of the first days I walked the property I met with the Tribal council and then I told them I was going to go look at the site.  They told me to stay out of the washes because mountain lions would wait for cattle and other prey to walk up the channels and pounce on them.  I remember flagging the site for clearing and I got the two casino helpers to go with me.  We would walk up on a lookout point and I would tell them where I wanted the hole to play.  Then we would go down into the brush and they would ride their horses and shout out to me where to tie the flags for clearing. We would do that all day, then I would have to go back and walk the site again to make sure I had it right.  You fall in love with places like Apache Stronghold, you spend so much time on site, the crew becomes your extended family and the golf site like your backyard.

A few of my favorite holes, 2, 4,10,11,13, you feel like you’re out in the middle of nowhere.  I have walked the other 18 holes that could be built on the site, really special land.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jim,

Good report and pics. First time I've seen summer grass there. I'm not sure but wasn't Troon Golf involved in management there at the beginning?

[Tom_Doak]

Well, that's ALMOST the entire construction crew ... somehow they didn't include Kye Goalby or Randy Ray in the photo, who shaped most everything that Jim Urbina didn't.

I was always very proud of the routing for the course and the minimal amount of shaping that we did there.  It was just after that project that my associates started being expert bunker shapers and our courses got prettier ... it was also due to some less than ideal finish work at Apache Stronghold that we got serious about doing better finish work.  But the course is one of the best examples of my original, minimalist style, where the routing and the greens contours are the most important things.

However, the course got to be in such awful condition after a few years, that it was impossible for me to talk about it.  Brad Klein BANNED it from the GOLFWEEK rankings, because it was getting high votes from their panelists even when it was in horrible condition ... it was #1 in Arizona for a while, and readers complained about going out of their way and finding it in such dreadful shape.  As far as I know it is the only course that was ever banned from the rankings, to keep guys from voting for it.  But, I didn't complain, because anybody who did go to play it would write me to complain about the conditioning, as if we had anything to do about that.  Even on GCA, mention of it would be shouted down by people appalled at the condition of the course.  And it WAS appalling.

I am thrilled to hear that the Tribe has hired a new superintendent and wish him all the luck in the world.  I spoke to someone a few months back who had interviewed for a new director of golf position there, too, although he did not take the job, hopefully they have found someone good for the position.  I have not heard from the Tribe directly for many years ... I've never understood why, but they just don't feel comfortable calling me about the status of the course, although I did send Jim to make a few visits and we were usually reimbursed for our trouble.

As to Jim Johnson's proposal, I doubt the Tribe would go for anything like that -- their primary motivation is to have the golf course as an attraction for the casino, so I doubt they'd want a "membership" to get in the way.  They MIGHT consider leasing the operation of the course, but one of the main difficulties with maintenance is that being on the crew is the equivalent of a civil-service job, and they've had at least a few guys that didn't work well but couldn't be fired.  [We never had that problem during the construction of the course, but when the wages were cut back after construction was complete, most of the best workers moved on to something else.]  It is really a municipal course with all of the same attendant problems, on top of which there are only a few people in the Tribe who have taken to golf and appreciate what they have.

I've heard they are talking about a second 18 holes.  They have a good site for it, but I will be pretty upset if they pursue it before they get the one we built back into good shape, especially since doing so should cost 1/20th of building a new 18.

[Jim Johnson]

As to Jim Johnson's proposal, I doubt the Tribe would go for anything like that -- their primary motivation is to have the golf course as an attraction for the casino, so I doubt they'd want a "membership" to get in the way. 

Hi Tom,
I thought I’d present the idea after spending some time in the casino the evening that we over-nighted at the hotel onsite. Looking around, I noticed that a large percentage of the people playing in the casino looked to be native Americans, and guessed that they were from the Apache Nation. Two of the few people we saw on the golf course the next morning were indeed Apache residents (I spoke to them on the 9th green to ask them to play through at the turn while my wife went inside).

If a lot of the clientele – at the present time – are their own residents, then I am guessing that the golf course might realize a larger net revenue from more “travellers” such as ourselves, who might be interested in visiting the course at various times throughout the year and hooking up with other like-minded individuals who appreciate great golf course architecture. Coupled with unaccompanied guests and Apache Nation residents, combined there could be potential for more play, both on the golf course and in the casino.

[Jim Johnson]

October 1999 … John Morrissett wrote:                                                                                                          
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of another inland course I have played (I bet Sand Hills might change this answer) in a more beautiful setting than Apache Stronghold.  




The first hole, aptly named “Eternity”, a long par-5, heads north from the clubhouse and climbs steadily to a bunkerless green featuring a swale running front to back, dividing the green into high left and right sides (a Biarritz?). The greensite is protected short and right by a low ridge off an extention of the hill which is to the right of the green and the backdrop for the practice range. Some golfers have stated that they feel this hole features a boring second shot. I disagree. You certainly don’t want to end up on the right side or the right edge of the fairway (see photo) with your second/layup shot, as that low ridge front right of the green will block out your view of the green. Better to play down the left side with your second shot, affording you a great view of the green and a shot at a birdie opportunity with a well struck approach shot. A neat feature is that the back tee on #1 at Apache Stronghold is actually on the practice putting green, although the two days that we played there, I didn’t see any tee markers on the green.
 
“The greens that especially come to mind are 1 and 5. Those greens were essentially natural contours that we just welled out, trying not to change the natural contours and surrounds. I really don’t think any of the architects I was familiar with then would even think about using those wild landforms as greens.” (Kye Goalby, April ’10)  

“Our first hole at Apache Stronghold in Arizona is something like 665 yards from a seldom-used back tee.  Uphill, too, although the altitude of 3000 feet negated that.  It's not really my favorite kind of opening hole, but in that case, it served to get across a big open stretch of ground and get up to the perfect site for the second tee.” (Tom Doak, Sept ’10)


View from the Apache tee, which I played from during the two rounds (6,524 yards)…


Here’s a zoomed view of the fairway; note the ridge coming down from the right, blocking the golfer’s view of the right half of green…


In the middle of the fairway…


Just in front of the left side fairway bunker…


In the right edge of the fairway, with a blind shot to the green…


The left fairway bunker, about 100 yards short of the green…


In the middle of the fairway, at the 100 yard marker…


Just in front of the green; both golf balls are in the swale…


Looking back at hole #1; note the swale in the green…

[Jim Johnson]

October 1999 … Bill Vostinak wrote …                                                                                                                    
I too must rave about Tom Doak's work in the desert, and SO refreshing not to see beautiful ponds.  The holes are strong but fair with very fun green complexes … the greens were so well designed as to dictate the hole's strategy from the tee.




The 2nd hole, “Creek”, which heads further north and plays fairly level overall, is a par-4 dogleg right that beautifully uses an arroyo to create options on the tee shot and angles on the approach shot - the closer to the arroyo off the tee, the better the angle on the second shot. “Creek”  features a decision to be made on the teebox … play it safe down the left/main fairway, or blast your teeshot over to the right/alternate fairway? If you can smash your tee shot long enough to make the right/alternate fairway, you’re left with a short approach shot of less than 100 yards to the front of the green. That right/alternate fairway is narrow though, less than 25 yards in width. The main fairway is much wider, opposite where the alternate fairway begins. So, do you play it safe or try to find that right side fairway? Hmmm. There’s a bunker biting into the left side of the green, making any approach shot from the left fairway that much more difficult.

This is perhaps my favorite hole at Apache Stronghold, for a variety of reasons … the first real sense of serenity and isolation in that part of the layout (which continues for most of the front nine), the split fairways are both in decent shape (one small insignificant spot in the left fairway needs TLC), the green is in excellent condition, there’s a gnarly greenside bunker that eats into the left side of the green (but does need a bit of work), but probably most of all, there’s a decision to be made on the tee … which fairway to aim for, and perhaps more importantly, especially in going for the left fairway, exactly where to hit the ball … play it real safe and aim left, but leaving yourself a much tougher approach shot – longer and over that greenside bunker – or playing close to the arroyo, leaving yourself a much shorter and easier approach shot and a better angle into the green.

“Those ravines at Apache Stronghold occasionally have a lot of water going down them ... I probably could have chosen to get closer to the wash with the 2nd green, or at least made the green smaller, so when the flag was on the left you couldn't just bail 30 feet to the right of it and two-putt.” (Tom Doak Nov ’03)

Aerials of hole #2... 2007 (top) and 2012 (bottom)...



View from the Apache tee…


In the left side of the left fairway…


In the left fairway…


At the right edge of the left fairway (right side fairway in distance)…


The arroyo between the two fairways…


The arroyo between the fairways, with a good view of the right side fairway…


In the right side fairway…


The greensite…


The greenside bunker – the far bank of the arroyo is in front…


From behind the green (the tees are in line with the white building in the distance)…


From behind the green, showing the right fairway…

[Anthony Butler]

Jim,

Thanks for the update and the photos... I was happy to see course conditions are looking much improved from my visit to Apache Stronghold in Feb '12... perhaps due to the influence of the new super. Tom mentioned.

To supplement Tom's comments, the idea of a second 18 at AS strikes me as pure madness... While the golf course represents something of a jobs program for the Tribe, it has been hard for them to identify and maintain one decent maintenance crew... especially someone to lead that crew on a daily basis. Even though the location doesn't sound that distant from Phoenix, the drive is challenging for most people in the Valley to make in a day... I left at 5:30am.. went round the course in a little over 3.5 hours, stopped for a quick lunch just outside Superior and did not get back to Scottsdale until 3:30pm.

That observation was reinforced by the number of RV's in the casino parking lot. I suspect the AS casino attracts more traveling retirees than day-trippers. They probably don't make the best population for daily fee golfers... plus, most of the east/west travelers in that area would be taking i10 through Tucson, so there's not a lot of passing traffic to attract to the casino/course anyway.

Gold Canyon which is about 60 miles closer to Phoenix has a somewhat similar topography to AS. The quality of the holes might not be as good, but the course conditions are far more consistent. The Tribe would have to maintain the course at that level for at least a year and wait for the word to get out for AP to become a 'destination' course.

Based on conversations with my uncle in Scottsdale, who served as the head Physician for the San Carlos community for over 6 years, and  what has happened to the course since AP opened, that seems like a remote possibility at this point.  

That said, if things stay on their current trajectory, I would definitely think about a return visit when I am out there next March.

[Matthew Petersen]

I adore the course and was heartened to find it in very playable condition when I visited in April. But a second course out there is just madness.

My fear is even if the conditions can be greatly improved that this is a facility that will always struggle. As Tom said, the moneymaker for the tribe is the casino. The problem is that driving from my home in north central Phoenix out to Apache Junction, I pass two newer and considerably nicer casinos. There are as many as 5 others that are within the same driving distance as Apache, and again are newer and nicer. Residents of Phoenix and Tucson do not need to drive out east of Glove simply to gamble.

For that matter, on my drive out there I went right by 36 holes at Wildfire Desert Ridge, 36 holes at Grayhawk, 36 holes at the TPC, 36 holes at Talking Stick, 27 holes at Kierland, 36 holes at Supertition Mountain, and 36 holes at Gold Canyon, not to mention perhaps as many as 10-20 other courses not especially worth mentioning. OK, none of those courses have the same great bones as Apache Stronghold, but they're all in much better condition and much closer. AS only charged me $25 to play, but it's over 200 miles round trip out there, so I paid over $20 in gas to get there. How many people are really interested in taking that much time to go play a course that, while definitely improving, is still in very rough shape? And that will not be likely to please most of the Scottsdale destination crowd as something like, say, Troon North would?

Finally, that green fee scares me. I saw perhaps 5 other groups out there the day I visited in April. (Granted, it was a Tuesday.) At $25 per player, it's hard to see how they find the money to put back into the course. Unless they;re using money from the casino, but even that looked very sparse.

It's a wonderful course and I hope they find a way to survive and thrive, but I sure don't see how adding 18 more holes there would help.

[Jim Johnson]

September 2001 … John Morrissett wrote …                                                                                                                          
Apache Stronghold is one of the first places I think of in this country for the prospect of playing more than 100 holes in a few days … I could just keep going round and round there.




Nicknamed “Cove”, the 3rd hole is the first in a great set of par-3’s. The hole plays southeast and slightly downhill from the back tees, but looks intimidating from the tee with two greenside bunkers fronting the green, one on each side. From the Apache tee, the teeshot must negotiate that front right bunker somewhat, as it covers the right half of the green, while the front left bunker is carved into a small ridge coming down from the cart path and there is some room over it to land on and roll onto the higher side of the green. From the Apache tee, the green is sited in such a way that the depth of the green is its fullest. Meanwhile, the Stronghold (back) tee is literally 100 yards left of the Apache tee, and provides a much different angle into the green, basically right up the chute between the two greenside bunkers, but into the green at its shallowest (refer to the aerial photo below for a better understanding of these differing angles of play).

A narrow tongue of fairway about 15 yards wide between the bunkers affords the shorter hitter the opportunity to knock the ball onto the green, which is situated in a great setting against a hillside, and is divided into a higher back shelf and a lower front half.
  
The green itself is in real good condition, but a bit scruffy on the fringe in several spots. The fairway is in good shape for those who come up short. A pool of water, however, laid in the bunker at the front left, and both rounds that I played, hit into it, losing my ball on one occasion.

“Interestingly, the back tee on #3 was built before I extended the green so far to the left.  I wanted to tear out the tee because I thought the hole was way too long for the shot value, but it was cheaper to irrigate it than to restore the desert.” (Tom Doak Nov ’03)





The view from the Stronghold (back) tee…


The view from Apache tee…


Zoomed in view of the green…


Fairway and green…


The greensite…


A look at the greensite from the cart path…


The view from the left greenside bunker…


Looking back on the 3rd hole from behind the green (the Apache tee is left of my wife, below the dip in the ridge; the Stronghold tee is below the peak in the distance)…


Putting on the rear upper shelf…

[Jim Johnson]

April 2002 … Don Mahaffey wrote …                                                                                                                      
I’m happy to see that others are beginning to notice how fabulous the greens are at Apache Stronghold … I have to say that I have never seen a better set of greens. They are so good I find it very hard to give them a proper description. I've never seen another Doak course so I don't know if this is the norm or if they just got it perfect here, but I think anyone who appreciates great architecture will feel like they are in the presence of something very special when they putt on those greens.





“Twin Peaks”, a dogleg left par-4, features a great green site, in a saddle between two hills with an open backdrop. The hole is located in the far northeast corner of the layout and plays over a corner bunker to a wide landing zone. The farther you drive the ball, the more room you have, as the fairway opens up on the right side. From there you have a clearer view of the green, albeit from a greater distance. The hole rewards the bold shot over that corner bunker with a shorter approach shot, but if you hit it too pure off the tee you could end up with a wicked lie in the natural grassed contours of the arroyo 50 yards in front of the green.

It’s a hole where the obvious – challenging the bunker in the corner of the dogleg to set up a better approach shot – is not always the solution. As Ran has stated in his excellent course review of Apache Stronghold … “The authors’ favorite hole, the fourth offers a fresh perspective from the tee: the farther you drive the ball, the more room you have.” It’s probably better to knock it out there to the far side of the dogleg, and have a good view of the green. The approach at #4 is exceptional, with the green framed by the two hills and the sky as a background.

The conditions in the 4th fairway were fairly good; a little sketchy just around the edge of the arroyo and below the green. The green itself was in good shape, except for two sandy spots near the outer edge.

From the green, it’s a short walk over to the 5th teeboxes beyond the base of the hill on the left, or back to the cart path, at the base of the hill on the right.


“We lowered the green/back of green profile about five feet to open up the view through.” (Tom Doak Nov ‘03)

2007 (top) and 2012 (bottom) aerial photos of hole #4...



Looking out from the Apache tee; the greensite is on the left edge of the photo…


Beginning of the fairway…


From the cartpath…


In the right side of the fairway, clear shot at the green…


In the right rough, just off the edge of the fairway…


A zoomed in look at the green…


In the middle of the fairway, about 120 yards out…


Looking back on the 4th hole…

[Matthew Petersen]

Green site at the third is one of the greats. That's where I really fell in love with the course.

[astavrides]

2 questions:
1a) If a typical golfer played this course as it is today, would he know that it was designed by arguably the best golf architect in the business, or would he just think it was a cow pasture because of the conditioning?
1b) If a GCA website participant was plopped on this course as it is today without knowing where he was, would he suspect it was Doak or would he just figure it was a no-name architect who did some interesting things.
2) If a Fazio or Nicklaus designed it, would it remain open in this condition, or would they have forced it to be NLE?

[scott_wood]

If you can get 299 others, I'm in.......

[Jim Johnson]

2 questions:
1a) If a typical golfer played this course as it is today, would he know that it was designed by arguably the best golf architect in the business, or would he just think it was a cow pasture because of the conditioning?
1b) If a GCA website participant was plopped on this course as it is today without knowing where he was, would he suspect it was Doak or would he just figure it was a no-name architect who did some interesting things.
2) If a Fazio or Nicklaus designed it, would it remain open in this condition, or would they have forced it to be NLE?

Good questions, a.

1a. "It's not a cow pasture. That's flat, boring, up and down parallel holes. At Apache Stronghold, you have to think about the shots. It's not boring. Despite the conditions, the elements are very strong. The average golfer would find it difficult enough being in some of those bunkers, and with sand in them, that much harder." (words out of my wife's mouth after I just yelled your question to her in the living room). Not sure she answered your question!
1b. Hmm, not sure. TD has been known to build some fairly wild greens in the past. I wouldn't call any of the greens at Apache Stronghold over-the-top. Not even close. Not that they're "boring", they're not, they have some real nice contouring. So, that could fool the GCA website participant. The use of the arroyo/barranca/wash throughout the golf course is dramatic/strategic/outstanding, and the right architect would have to make use of that (correctly) in order to make the course as strong as it is. Doak and team did that. As TD has said, he's very proud of the routing. And he should be. It flows. As you transition from hole to hole, it feels completely natural. You become one with nature. Sounds corny, yeah. But it's true. If you aren't sliding off one green and onto the next nearby tee, you're winding your way through the desert for a little bit, eagerly anticipating what's around the next corner (i.e. 11 to 12, 13 to 14, 17 to 18). Jim Urbina says the place is magical. I now know what he means.
2. If Tom Fazio or Jack Nicklaus designed the course, their design fee would have been ~$1 million. If the tribe could have afforded to do that, they could certainly afford to spend the necessary dollars to upkeep it to "Fazio" or "Nicklaus" standards. I admire the Apache Nation for choosing who they did, to design and build their course. That required foresight. The result was special. 

[Jim Johnson]

Scott, your February 2012 comments about Apache Stronghold on GCAtlas will preface my review of the 17th hole.

[astavrides]

Jim, thanks for the responses.  They make sense.  I enjoyed my one play there in 2002.  It was in pretty good shape at that time.

[Jim Johnson]

May 2002 … Matt Cohn wrote...                                                                                                                                    
The design at Apache is just really good. It's very easy to tell that an exceptionally talented architect was involved. Overall, the people who visit this website will absolutely love Apache. People who have never heard of or don't understand this website might want to stick to the lush grass and posh hotels of Scottsdale.





A long straightaway par-4 which heads northwest, “Gila Monster” is a big par-4 with a landing area - some 10 feet below the back tees - which looks tighter off the tee than it really is, as it widens past some brush areas. The entire fairway cants imperceptibly from right to left, but is not that noticeable until one reaches the green and looks back down the hole towards the tees. There’s a speed slot down the left side to take advantage of, but bust it out there too far and too left and you’ll have to deal with sand.

It's interesting how the tee boxes have been laid out. The back tees are some 60 yards to the left of the more forward tees, and have to deal more directly with that big bunker on the left side (see aerial photo below).

After crossing another small arroyo, the golfer climbs gently to the green. The green site is really cool, perched on a hillside with several great pin positions. The front shelf is some 15 yards deep before sliding 25 yards down to the back edge. Balls hit onto the hill left of the green could careen down onto the green with varying results, or get hung up in the vegetation (note my wife walking in that area in the photos below). The swale in the green is tied in perfectly with the surrounds on the left. Tom Doak is known for some pretty wild greens, and this one is probably the wildest of Apache Stronghold’s 18. But it doesn’t seem wild, as it ties in perfectly with the slopes coming in from the sides. Another great green.

The fairway here was, for the most part, in good shape. There were, however, several patches of sand/gravel between tee and green, as evidenced in the photos. This was mitigated to some degree by the wonderful rolling contours in the fairway, coupled with the expansiveness one feels when out on this fairway. The green, and surrounds, were in good condition.

“The greens that especially come to mind are 1 and 5. Those greens were essentially natural contours that we just welled out, trying not to change the natural contours and surrounds. I really don’t think any of the architects I was familiar with then would even think about using those wild landforms as greens.” (Kye Goalby, April ’10)





Looking out from the Apache tee; more room to the right than there appears to be…


225 yards out; these are certainly playable conditions here…


In the middle of the fairway, lots of room to roam…


In the left side of the fairway…


The approach to the 5th green…


In the right side of the fairway, about 150 yards out. Here’s a good example of what Jim Urbina says the course needs, some “TLC”. Note the contours on the other side of the arroyo…


Climbing to the green. Note that the sandy/gravelly patch several yards ahead is on another “high” spot. It seems to be a recurring theme here. Note also the basically blind approach to the green. No concerns, though, the green is 40 yards deep…


Looking back to the tees, from the back right of the green (which was in excellent condition btw).


Looking back to the tees, from the back left of the green (notice the sideways slope of the fairway). Note how the green contours tie in perfectly with the ridges coming in from the sides, the “bump” on the left side of the photo (“natural”, according to what I’ve read from Kye Goalby), and the two ridges coming down from the hillside on the right edge of the photo. The bump immediately above the flagstick and the bump to the left of it are the two hills which support the saddle of the 4th green…


The front of the green, looking from the fairway…


The front of the green, looking back to the tees…

[Jim Franklin]

How did the greens run? Slow? Okay? If the greens were running okay, it looks like a fun place to play.

[Jim Johnson]

Jim, the greens ran slow. They were, however, in good-excellent shape, the exceptions that I can think of being a couple of sandy patches on the 4th green, one or two patches on the 8th green, several patches on the 14th (Redan) green, and a couple of patches on the 17th green. I would think that if they have a bentgrass turf nursery they could patch those up pretty quick. The other greens all seemed to be in really good condition. Just slow.

My take on the speed of the greens is that they just aren't real busy, so they probably don't feel the need to go to the extra expense of cutting them low and keeping them fast. With summer fast approaching perhaps they also want to grow them a bit longer? Perhaps they don't cut them everyday? We played on a Wednesday afternoon at 2pm and Thursday morning at 9am, perhaps we were in a window where we experienced the grass at its longest?

I'm no turf expert. Perhaps someone who is can chime in here and offer some thoughts. Thanks.

[Jim Johnson]

Green site at the third is one of the greats. That's where I really fell in love with the course.

Agreed.

There's a great photo of it in a blog online called "golf50in10".

[Doug Wright]

Glad to see the conditions at Apache Stronghold are much improved. It is an excellent golf course, and I have always enjoyed going out there

[Jim Johnson]

I was always very proud of the routing for the course and the minimal amount of shaping that we did there.  It was just after that project that my associates started being expert bunker shapers and our courses got prettier ... it was also due to some less than ideal finish work at Apache Stronghold that we got serious about doing better finish work.  But the course is one of the best examples of my original, minimalist style, where the routing and the greens contours are the most important things.

Tom, I'm curious to exactly what you are referring to at Apache Stronghold when you say "some less than ideal finish work at Apache Stronghold".

Thanks.

[Bill Seitz]

On #4, is there anything, other than the long carry, stopping a long hitter from going right at the green?  It's hard to tell how long that might be.  I tried to check it on Google Maps, and I was getting about 275, but it was hard to tell exactly where the tees were.

[Garland Bayley]

1a. "It's not a cow pasture. That's flat, boring, up and down parallel holes. At Apache Stronghold, you have to think about the shots. It's not boring. Despite the conditions, the elements are very strong. The average golfer would find it difficult enough being in some of those bunkers, and with sand in them, that much harder." (words out of my wife's mouth after I just yelled your question to her in the living room). Not sure she answered your question!
...

Having learned my golf on cow pastures, I don't think you have the same idea about cow pastures that I do. It's a cow pasture, because you can't farm it. Much like links. I have played many grassed courses that are flat, boring, up and down parallel holes. The proper analogy would be farm land, and row crops.

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