Westchester's Best ?

« **on:** July 28, 2003, 11:40:01 AM »

I had the opportunity to return to Sleepy Hollow CC (Scarborough-on-Hudson, NY) and play the course after a about a 15 year absence. I was most impressed with the way the on-course and off-course attributes are framed so well.

The course, like a good number in Westchester, is on rolling terrain that simply maximizes the shotmaking tasks the golfer encounters. I also have to say the uphill par-4 12th at 437 yards is simply one of the finest long par-4's you canplay in the county and in all likelihood in the entire metro area.

Few people discuss Sleepy Hollow but I agree with Tom Doak's assessment in "Confidential Guide" -- the layout is indeed well done and it's a course that needs to be played when in the county.

Given the nature of how good the golf is in Westchester County I wonder how a top ten listing would look? Normally, in such situations I lead with my listing, but this time I will hold back to allow others (those who have elephant ones -- not parakeet ones

) to post their findings/ opinions.

Among the candidates (in no order mind you) would include the following:

Winged Foot (West & East Courses)
Quaker Ridge
Fenway
Sleepy Hollow
Westchester CC (West)
Apawamis
Trump National (no laughing from the traditionalists please!)
Hudson National
Purchase
Century
St. Andrews
Metropolis
Others(?)

« **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2003, 11:43:12 AM »

how about that punchbowl at Sleepy??!! I think it's 16? Wow!

« **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2003, 12:25:04 PM »

Anglebrook deserves to be on this list...

« **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2003, 01:49:28 PM »

Sebonac:

How bout doing the honor and listing your top ten in order?

« **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2003, 02:04:08 PM »

I haven't played enough of these to actually rank them but Wykagyl also deserves to be mentioned on the list. It has influences from both Donald Ross and Tillinghast and is set on the same rolling terrain as many of the other Westchester classics.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2003, 03:07:18 PM »

Would Sunningdale qualify for this list?

« **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2003, 03:51:01 PM »

Matt ,I like these for design and character as top 10

Quaker Ridge
Century
Whippoorwill
Fenway
WFW

Wykagyl
WFE
Tamarack..........neat Banks course one mile into connecticut
Apawamis Siwanoy

« **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2003, 07:40:53 PM »

The thing that fascinates me about Westchester is that the top position is for the most part accepted -- Winged Foot's West Course.

However, I will say this there are number of people (fellow raters / reviewers / media people) who acknowledge the demands / intensity of the West but really have not affinity for the course. I guess they admire it's toughness but don't wish to handle it each and every day. I feel otherwise and believe Winged Foot / West is among the top 3-4 parkland courses we have in the USA. Tillie was told to deliver a man's size course and he did -- big time. Think about this -- until David Love III broke 270 only two players had broken 280 through the '84 Open Championship won by Fuzzy.

The West requires first rate driving the ball and it requires a solid iron game. I can't think of many courses where the second shot is so compeletely and rigorously tested like the West. Miss on any short side and Houdini had best be your name to recover. The only real weakness -- Tillie didn't create any memorable par-5's at the course.

I don't see WF / East anywhere near as the West. There's been a big push to somehow equate the two and the East is even listed among the top courses in the country by a few of the major polls. I believe the East is a solid course but the overall intensity and demands are on the lite-side -- I'm not saying it's a pushover but the architectural detailing and scale of the West is not to be found on the East.

The difficulty in assessing Westchester is that the list of other courses for the 2nd through the 5th position is quite competitive. For quite some time it was automatically assumed that Quaker Ridge was the 2nd best course -- and, in some minds, even the best in the county. I don't see it that way. QR is a superb layout and clearly one of the 100 best in the USA -- I also don't see it being among the nation's top 25 but that's just my opinion. QR has some of the most demanding greens you can find but are they any more demanding than what you find at Fenway? At Westchester CC (West)? At Wykagyl?

The 2nd through 5th position I would have as follows:

Fenway *yes, a few more trees need to go but Gil Hanse hit a major league home run with the restoration
Quaker Ridge *still solid but is it really top 30 in the USA?
Westchester CC (West) *superlative piece of property and never gets ripped apart when the big boys show up. Great diversity of holes.
Sleepy Hollow *vastly underappreciated course -- be interested to see what Ken Dye does here.

The second five becomes even more demanding to select.

I have not played Trump National this far so I can't rate it -- I have seen the property and it certainly is demanding -- I hope to play it shortly.

For the 6th through 10th position --

Winged Foot / East
Century
Among the final three spots ...

Wykagyl
Possibly Anglebrook?
I like Metropolis but many say it has only a few holes of note.

A couple of other comments --

Purchase is just too much of all-or-nothing type target style golf and not very good. Whippoorill is good but Banks has done better in Jersey with a few of his layouts there.

I like Anglebrook and I have to see it again to see if it has the stuff needed to crack into the top ten. The course does feature two different styles of nines and it certainly isn't boring. From what I can remember I can see it cracking the second half of the top ten.

Tamarack can't count because it's in CT. I also don't think that Apawamis and Siwanoy have enough hole diversity to be at the upper realm but I know others will see these two courses differently than I do.

« **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2003, 10:04:51 PM »

Matt,

I have not played enough to do a full list, but agree with Mark Chalfant that Whipporwill deserves to be on your list. Golfweek Classic 100 may have been a stretch, but there is better diversity out there as opposed to Metropolis, which I would put on the B list. I also think Westchester South should move up at least to the B list since they did work to the course. It is no longer just a "sporty" course.

Knollwood and Elmwood are also sold B courses that most here would enjoy if not for knowledge of their neighbors.

Mark,

Good to see your knowledge here !!

« **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2003, 10:12:31 PM »

Matt,

Trivia Question: Name the only (that I know of) 19th hole in Westchester?

« **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2003, 10:23:26 PM »

Sleepy Hollow will be hosting the Macdonald Cup this fall.

« **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2003, 12:06:23 AM »

Bahto's Place (Kn........)

« **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2003, 05:42:36 AM »

Does Fenway still have a 19th hole?

« **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2003, 08:37:34 AM »

I recently played Winged Foot West, Hudson national and Trump National and I must say they are all first rate courses. Trump National is a monster from the tips and would make a great test of golf for anyone. A good variety of par 3s, medium length 4s, long, tight 4s, and good 5s. I thoroughly enjoyed the course and hope I can get back. Winged Foot was, well, Winged Foot. You had to be able to work the ball and be on the right part of the green or else. It was nice walking off 18 with a birdie. And Hudson National doesn't get enough credit from the national rankings. I thought it was a marvelous layout with a lot of variety and some great vistas. It was interesting that most of the elevation change was from green to tee and not during the hole.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2003, 10:13:41 AM »

Mr. Hurricane,

Where was the variety in the par 3's at TN ?

Did you play WFW from the tips ?

« **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2003, 11:49:48 AM »

Mike Sweeney,
The answer is Knowllwood CC

Fenway has a tiny green adjacent to its 18th green, which is the only remnant of a women's nine-hole course. It was referred to as the Bijou Course. Unfortunately, the addition of tennis courts, a driving range and a parking lot led to its demise. Very sad

In response to SBR, who asked about Sunningdale, it could be on the list. The routing is Raynor (although the Redan and Biarritz were eliminated in 1928-1930 when a "Tillinghast Plan" was implemented), the course is maintained in excellent condition and it gets very liitle play. The land is very strong but greens have shrunk and some lack contour relative to others that have abundent movement. Bunkers also have a look that is too modern. Club would benefit from having a leadership committed to their course living up to its potential.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am (in theory) one of those leaders.

My list in Westchester county:

1) Sunningdale (I have to!)
2) Fenway
3) WFW
4) WFE
5) Quaker Ridge
6) Apawamis
7) Century

Westchester (west)
9) WyKagyl
10) Hudson Nat'l

A few remarks on Fenway.
Best assortment of par-3 holes (140 yds, 235, 185-uphill, 185-downhill)
a drivable par-4, a diabolical 305 yd par-4 with a postage stamp green. Good mixture of mid-length par-4s, god mix of long 4s, 2 excellent risk/reward 5s.
Also, absolutely best collection of undisturbed Tillinghast greens (short of or comparable to WFW).

« **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2003, 12:25:52 PM »

Thanks for filling me in on Sunningdale. I had the good fortune of playing there a few Octobers ago. Course was in GREAT condition. If work was done at Sunningdale would it favor the Raynor routing or Tillinghast?

« **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2003, 01:26:10 PM »

SBR,
The short answer is- whatever the architect suggests. At the point the architect is hired the rank and file membership will take a back seat. (I hope!)

« **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2003, 03:47:11 PM »

Herman-
I've had the pleasure of playing Sunningdale several times. What types of changes would you have in mind?

I agree that the greens could use some additional pitch. Also, the 18th needs to be a better finishing hole (or switch the nines and make the tenth a real challenging opening hole?).

Otherwise, though, I've had an enjoyable time over there...

-Tank

« **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2003, 06:47:17 PM »

Sunningdale ahead of WF / West -- surely you jest!

For those who say Trump's new place is the be-all end-all I have to say for disclosure purposes I have only walked the layout but does not the severe terrain make recoveries nearly impossible on a good number of the holes there?

Mike Sweeney / Mark Chalfant:

No disrespect to Banks design at Whippoorwill but I have to say his better work resides on this side of the Hudson with the likes of:

Forsgate / Banks Course
The Knoll (still to be updated by Bahto)
Essex County CC

Mr. Hurricane:

Please tell me how Hudson National is so distinctly different than other well-groomed and well-presented TF designs. Does it really have the architectural heft of the others?

« **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2003, 08:03:55 PM »

Tank,
I agree our 18th needs strengthening. My guess is that it will eventually evolve into a risk/ reward type, long par-4. Don't ask me when. Again, I hope that the architect we eventually retain will offer some new design--not necessarily new routing, but who knows.

Matt Ward,
WFW is BIG in every sense and is a true championship course. Ours is a small place--140 acres in total. We have had a few Met Ams over the years, nothing bigger. I still enjoy touring our course, though I think a strong architectural mind could enhance the experience.

I would say that Wipperwill is to Banks as Wykagyl is to Ross, White or Tillinghast. (take your pick.) "The Whip" is a beautiful course and great fun but I don't see the connection to MacDonald-Raynor- let alone Banks. If you want to see an authentic Banks, I agree, The Knoll has all the signature holes--and they're good.

« **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2003, 08:28:42 PM »

Herman,

I have also seen Ross get credit for Whippoorwill. Do you know the history, it seems like a mixed bag?

« **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2003, 11:32:58 PM »

Sorry to say I have not played enough golf on all the great Westchester courses.

I am confident that Sleepy Hollow is the best 4-hour walk in Westchester though.

Herman-Do you have any details on who will get the job? What is the mission statement? Two clubs that i am familiar with "kind of told the archie" what they wanted and the results show it.

« **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2003, 05:56:01 AM »

How about Long Island vs Westchester

Shinnecock
NGLA
Friar's Head
Maidstone
Garden City
Piping Rock
Creek
Meadow Brook
Huntington CC, Westhampton, Deepdale....

LI top 5 kick butt as to fun to play every day.

« **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2003, 08:57:28 AM »

Patrick-
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I was playing Columbia CC yesterday. Yes, I played WFW from the back tees although several holes had tees that weren't being used due to maintenance. I hit a lot of 3woods because of the doglegs and the fact I turn it easier with that club. As for TN, I hit different clubs into each par 3 so I consider that variety. Downhill, uphill, short, long, water. It may not have been 3 totally distinct holes, but different enough.

Matt-
Yes, I thought what TF did at Hudson was exceptional. Most other courses in that part of the country use the elevation changes during play and he used most of it from green to tee.

News:

Matt_Ward

david h. carroll

Sebonac

Matt_Ward

Jimmy Muratt

Sean Remington (SBR)

mark chalfant

Matt_Ward

Mike_Sweeney

Mike_Sweeney

George_Bahto

Gene Greco

Sean Remington (SBR)

Jim Franklin

Patrick_Mucci

Michael J. Moss

Sean Remington (SBR)

Michael J. Moss

tank

Matt_Ward

Michael J. Moss

Mike_Sweeney

corey miller

larry_munger

Jim Franklin

An Error Has Occurred!