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Jon Byron

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How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« on: May 27, 2013, 12:36:10 AM »
http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/peter-kostis-how-golf-lost-its-way

This article is in the latest edition of Golf magazine. A couple things are interesting. First, the theme is that golf is too hard, too slow, and too expensive - a pretty accurate summary.  Second, as Kostis is a paid broadcaster and a member of the golf "establishment" this is a fairly bold statement for him to make. Good on him.  Turning golf into 7000 yard, cart only, 5 hour rounds is a mess.
Haven't played since yesterday, not playing until tomorrow, hardly playing at all!

John Kirk

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 02:16:37 AM »
Walk your home course until you can't walk anymore.  It's the "career extender".

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 05:55:47 AM »
http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/peter-kostis-how-golf-lost-its-way

This article is in the latest edition of Golf magazine. A couple things are interesting. First, the theme is that golf is too hard, too slow, and too expensive - a pretty accurate summary.  Second, as Kostis is a paid broadcaster and a member of the golf "establishment" this is a fairly bold statement for him to make. Good on him.  Turning golf into 7000 yard, cart only, 5 hour rounds is a mess.

Jon,

Let's be realistic.

Women, juniors, seniors and the overwhelming majority of golfers are NOT playing 7,000+ yard courses, so I tend to discount that component.

Second, golfers, not the developer, owner/operator or pro shop dictate the tees that golfers play from.
Golfers alone make that choice.

I like Peter, I know him personally, but, regarding slow play, a culprit in the quandary is ......his master............TV and the PGA Tour.

With a cart, you could play 9 holes in an hour, if the culture was different.


A.G._Crockett

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 07:30:02 AM »
http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/peter-kostis-how-golf-lost-its-way

This article is in the latest edition of Golf magazine. A couple things are interesting. First, the theme is that golf is too hard, too slow, and too expensive - a pretty accurate summary.  Second, as Kostis is a paid broadcaster and a member of the golf "establishment" this is a fairly bold statement for him to make. Good on him.  Turning golf into 7000 yard, cart only, 5 hour rounds is a mess.

Jon,

Let's be realistic.

Women, juniors, seniors and the overwhelming majority of golfers are NOT playing 7,000+ yard courses, so I tend to discount that component.

Second, golfers, not the developer, owner/operator or pro shop dictate the tees that golfers play from.
Golfers alone make that choice.

I like Peter, I know him personally, but, regarding slow play, a culprit in the quandary is ......his master............TV and the PGA Tour.

With a cart, you could play 9 holes in an hour, if the culture was different.


Patrick,
Without question the Tour is culpable for slow play, and that isn't addressed in this article.  And we'd have our heads in the sand if we didn't see that the Tour's tacit endorsement of slow play is getting worse instead of better.  Kostis does however say that "Televised golf also played a role by encouraging golfers to revere courses like Augusta National and the U.S. Open tracks they saw on TV.", which speaks to his main point in the article.

I think Kostis is talking in very general terms about the OVERALL difficulty of too many modern designs, rather than just length or pace of play issues.  It's a very brief article, really, and he's only speaking to the difficulty of golf at whatever length one plays the course. 

I liked the article because it could be written about my home course.  I like the golf course and never get tired of it, and when I shoot a good number I feel like I've really done something.  But if I had been forced to learn to play the game there, I'm not sure I'd still be playing golf at all; it is just HARD, and in some cases needlessly so, with GCA features that punish lesser golfers excessively.  And I play fast and I'm all the way up to the 6500 yd. tees now.  I think that sort of design is what Kostis is referring to, and there is a ton of it around.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 07:34:38 AM »
AG,

The funny thing about slow play is that almost everybody is aware of it,but nobody wants to take the bull by the horns and do anything about it.

If you told golfers that if they played in 3:00 they'd get $ 10,000, you'd never hear about slow play again.

Maybe a few local beatings, but no slow play ;D

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 07:36:01 AM »
Well I never really like articles that state a problem and offer no solution. Reality is golf is changing all over. Many private course are now public or have reciprocal arrangements. Many public and resort courses are now cheaper because they need play. Golf is a market and markets respond.

The guy that is most interesting to me in the golf business is our buddy Mike Young. He never had the "big" winner on an architecture list and now he transformed himself into an owner/operator here in the USA with his model that he has been preaching for years. Shrinking market here in the USA that he seems to have figured out, and he grows his architecture business overseas where the growth is.

Seems like a smart guy to me, and if you are on his Facebook page, he clearly knows how to get on some fancy courses in Northern California!

Look at The Bridge. It was beat up for years on GCA.com, yet, it sold out its membership unlike some others. Now it seems to have a loyal following but guess what, the members are getting older and probably not getting any better so they re-adjust to the market. Here is re-adjusted #1:



I can't tell you how much that looks different from when I played it. Fabulous adjustment.

Yale is now really pushing for 4 1/2 hour rounds in a constructive way. However, I recently played with two visitors who played from the back while I the member and 5-8 shots better than them played the member tees. I shot somewhere is the low 80's (excluding the two X's  :'( ) and they did not break 90??!! Change does not happen in a day.

Driving past the silly hard Pound Ridge Golf Club in an hour to play 9 hole Hotchkiss with my Autistic son and Jim Kennedy. Jim has established a loyal niche of psycho golfers with Autistic sons that neeeeeed a place to play when The Boss is traveling.  :D

PS. The drive up there is beautiful too and we stop in Kent for brunch and to see the Kent Falls.


« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 07:39:33 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Ken Moum

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 09:00:17 AM »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Lou_Duran

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2013, 01:10:09 PM »
"I liked the article because it could be written about my home course.  I like the golf course and never get tired of it, and when I shoot a good number I feel like I've really done something.  But if I had been forced to learn to play the game there, I'm not sure I'd still be playing golf at all; it is just HARD, and in some cases needlessly so, with GCA features that punish lesser golfers excessively.  And I play fast and I'm all the way up to the 6500 yd. tees now."

It shouldn't surprise me, but mine was the opposite experience.  I fell in love with golf on an extremely difficult course, OSU's Scarlet.  It took me from being a novice with a fundamentally flawed swing to a decent low single-digit golfer in two or three years.

"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value."  Thomas Paine

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/singlehtml.htm

I don't know where most here play golf, but there are a bunch of courses in north Texas that can be played at a variety of lengths and are quite easy.  Sure, if you want to play the back tees and keep score according to the rules, it can be very hard.  But who does?

Slow play is definitely a problem.  But so can impatient, narcissistic types who want to race around a course which is being shared with others who may not be in such a hurry.  Golf is a big world, perhaps we all need to be better citizens.

Cost doesn't appear to be a factor in most markets.  On an inflation adjusted basis, I suspect that golf is considerably cheaper today in all but the most regulated markets (i.e. urban areas where "spread the wealth" policies dominate) than it was 30 years ago.  There are incredible deals on memberships, player's club programs, and balls and equipment (where a $300 driver can be purchased in a couple short seasons following introduction for less than $100).

I actually tend to agree with some of what Kostis said earlier (Geoff's piece).  The world is changing.  American society since the 1960s is vastly different.  Things come much easier.  Our kids have mobile phones, computers, and all sorts of stuff that I couldn't have dreamt of not to say being able to afford them.  There many more alternatives to occupy our time.  We are becoming more sedentary, more accustomed to watching and, perhaps, participating less actively (punching keys as opposed to knocking a ball).

What does this all mean for golf?  I think that it will become more of a niche sport, but it will never die.  The owner/operator may even make a big comeback.  Few of us not trying to make a living in the sport have much to worry about.  There will be ample opportunities to pursue the game.  And a few of those clubs which historically were not accessible, their doors might open up for even folks like me.  Who figured!  In a country where not an insignificant portion of the population is singularly concerned with how much more their neighbor has, golf is becoming more proletariat, more democratic!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 01:19:25 PM by Lou_Duran »

Mike_Young

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 01:46:05 PM »
The first question I would ask myself in this argument is : do we need to grow golf and if so, tell me why?  It's not growing but that's ok.  Ask yourself how many golf courses built in the last 25 years were actually built for golf.  That's where your answer lies.  40 lots to a hole .....
If we had too many grocery stores in a community of 100,000 people would we try to grow the community to fill the grocery stores or would we close some stores?  Golf will be fine but it is not sustainable the ay it's going.  If you watch the Taylormades and the Callaways you will see that we are still being force fed and that eventually will have to stop.  I think the shocker will be that some of the "big time" courses will be the ones that go away while the smaller ones make it just because people can learn to play there.
Beginning with Harbortown golf was raped by the development side of the business.  And we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 02:18:44 PM »
we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.

Speak for yourself.  I am one of the few on this board who routinely praise the merits of the small and modest clubs who charge a reasonable fee. I am not nor ever have been on the big money spend spin round. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bill_McBride

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 02:51:18 PM »
we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.

Speak for yourself.  I am one of the few on this board who routinely praise the merits of the small and modest clubs who charge a reasonable fee. I am not nor ever have been on the big money spend spin round. 

Ciao   

Mike is definitely one who pushes that agenda as well.  He doesn't have to "speak for himself," everything he does says it for him.

Sean_A

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2013, 03:11:24 PM »
we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.

Speak for yourself.  I am one of the few on this board who routinely praise the merits of the small and modest clubs who charge a reasonable fee. I am not nor ever have been on the big money spend spin round. 

Ciao   

Mike is definitely one who pushes that agenda as well.  He doesn't have to "speak for himself," everything he does says it for him.

Regardless of what Mike does, is or isn't, I would prefer he didn't speak for me.  Capiche?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bill_McBride

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2013, 03:21:43 PM »
we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.

Speak for yourself.  I am one of the few on this board who routinely praise the merits of the small and modest clubs who charge a reasonable fee. I am not nor ever have been on the big money spend spin round. 

Ciao   

Mike is definitely one who pushes that agenda as well.  He doesn't have to "speak for himself," everything he does says it for him.

Regardless of what Mike does, is or isn't, I would prefer he didn't speak for me.  Capiche?

Ciao

Capisco!

Paul Gray

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2013, 03:34:04 PM »
An excellent little article but hardly anything shocking in what he's saying.

RTJ built some awful golf courses which sat well within a post war mood keen to embrace anything which appeared to represent affluence and man's ability to dominant the natural world. Taming the beast was, and for the less enlightened remains, very much the thing to do.

Hardly revolutionary news, surely, to the GCA crowd.  ???

Give it time and the purists will eventually rule the architectural landscape again. TD and others are only going to get more recognition in the years ahead.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Terry Lavin

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2013, 05:29:12 PM »
Too many golf housing projects. Too many destination second home golf projects.  Not enough buyers with real wealth to withstand financial upheaval. Nuff said.

Something tells me we don't need Peter Late to the News Conference Kostis to tell us that.  Thank anyway, Mr. Biz Hub.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 05:31:05 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Brent Hutto

Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 05:54:43 PM »
With a cart, you could play 9 holes in an hour, if the culture was different.

I think Pat is onto something here and I think there's not necessarily an "if" involved.

In another thread I mentioned having played a round recently at the course where I first started the game in 1994. I teed off around lunch time on a Saturday.

Other than morning groups finishing up their second nines, the entire course was populated by two types of golfers. One group consisted of myself, walking and carrying my bag. Playing at my usual pace of just under 3 hours.

The other group, including as far as I could tell everyone else on the course, was single male golfers of various ages 18 to mid-50's. Each golfer in a cart. Playing solo. And barely waiting for the cart to come to a stop before hopping out to swat at the ball then back in the cart, in some cases before the ball stopped rolling.

The guy playing immediately behind me wasn't even bothering to putt. He'd hit the ball a couple times, maybe chip or hit a bunker shot then pick up the ball and zoom to the next hole.

I foolishly tried to keep ahead of him and ended up playing my last seven holes in about fifty-five minutes...with him sitting in the cart, arms crossed, waiting for me to get out of his way.

So I can definitely see the public-golf market "bifurcating" with the low end of the market (this course was about twenty bucks to play nine holes with a cart on a Saturday) catering to guys who want to play nine holes of solo golf-cart-polo in about 45-50 minutes then haul ass back home to attend to their family. Seems more trouble than it's worth to me but I must have seen a dozen of these guys zipping around in all directions that afternoon, mostly not even bothering to play the holes in order. Just zoom through the woods or cut across a couple fairways to where a hole was open.

Mike_Young

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 06:15:48 PM »
we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.

Speak for yourself.  I am one of the few on this board who routinely praise the merits of the small and modest clubs who charge a reasonable fee. I am not nor ever have been on the big money spend spin round. 

Ciao   
Dude, I am talking about those of us in the industry not the consumer....ciao
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Paul Gray

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 06:17:27 PM »
An excellent little article but hardly anything shocking in what he's saying.

RTJ built some awful golf courses which sat well within a post war mood keen to embrace anything which appeared to represent affluence and man's ability to dominant the natural world. Taming the beast was, and for the less enlightened remains, very much the thing to do.

Hardly revolutionary news, surely, to the GCA crowd.  ???

Give it time and the purists will eventually rule the architectural landscape again. TD and others are only going to get more recognition in the years ahead.

Paul: Some big statements here - have you played many RTJ courses? I don't know much about him - in fact, the two courses of his I have played: Peachtree and Ballybunion Cashen - I loved. Tell us more.

In all honesty, I believe my total of RTJ courses played stands at one. But the suggestion that some of his courses have had a negative impact on the mindset of the golfing masses is, again, not exactly a bold statement on GCA.com.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 08:35:50 PM »


RTJ built some awful golf courses which sat well within a post war mood keen to embrace anything which appeared to represent affluence and man's ability to dominant the natural world. Taming the beast was, and for the less enlightened remains, very much the thing to do.

Paul,

Honestly, can you tell me any "awful golf courses" by RTJ? I have never played an RTJ below a Doak 4, the average according to Tom Doak?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 09:20:32 PM »
An excellent little article but hardly anything shocking in what he's saying.

RTJ built some awful golf courses which sat well within a post war mood keen to embrace anything which appeared to represent affluence and man's ability to dominant the natural world. Taming the beast was, and for the less enlightened remains, very much the thing to do.

Hardly revolutionary news, surely, to the GCA crowd.  ???

Give it time and the purists will eventually rule the architectural landscape again. TD and others are only going to get more recognition in the years ahead.

Paul: Some big statements here - have you played many RTJ courses? I don't know much about him - in fact, the two courses of his I have played: Peachtree and Ballybunion Cashen - I loved. Tell us more.

In all honesty, I believe my total of RTJ courses played stands at one. But the suggestion that some of his courses have had a negative impact on the mindset of the golfing masses is, again, not exactly a bold statement on GCA.com.

Paul I would humbly suggest you play some RTJ course and form your own opinion instead of being part of the herd, it's a bit healthier for everyone is true of any topic.  8)
It's all about the golf!

Matt MacIver

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 10:07:37 PM »
This weekend I played as a twosome in 3.5 hours, with great conversation and at the end a good score. I'm thinking I'd rather a 3.5 hour twosome then a 4.45 hour foursome.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 11:15:59 PM »


RTJ built some awful golf courses which sat well within a post war mood keen to embrace anything which appeared to represent affluence and man's ability to dominant the natural world. Taming the beast was, and for the less enlightened remains, very much the thing to do.

Paul,

Honestly, can you tell me any "awful golf courses" by RTJ? I have never played an RTJ below a Doak 4, the average according to Tom Doak?

It's hard to judge an architect overall like an RTJ when he has a few hundred courses which he designed. I've only played the "good" golf courses of his (most specifically, Spyglass) and have few complaints about it. I'm sure if we all visited his weaker golf courses we'd have much to complain about.

Really my biggest gripe with RTJ is he churned out golf courses at an alarming rate, but even as I say that I find myself being a hypocrite, as I have not problem with Donald Ross doing the same only a few decades earlier. Ross' creativity allowed him to create unique greens from behind a desk, while allowing his associates to make changes when necessary. Comparatively, from what I see about RTJ's tracks online, little seems to change.

I'll know more after this summer.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Paul Gray

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 03:16:59 AM »
Clearly I've ruffled some feathers with the term awful, for which I apologise. However, I wonder how many here, much as Connor has suggested, have ever played any of his lesser courses i.e. the ones the golfing masses are far more likely to have first hand experience of.
I'm sure I'd love, amongst many other, Ballybunion. That however wasn't the sort of legacy I had in mind.

To fail to make any link between RTJ, target golf and the negative effects therein would however be a mistake. Try fours hours of boredom on a Dave Thomas course and then try to pursued me the ghost of RTJ didn't have a hand in it.

In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Sean_A

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 03:19:28 AM »
we all jumped on the bandwagon as it went by.

Speak for yourself.  I am one of the few on this board who routinely praise the merits of the small and modest clubs who charge a reasonable fee. I am not nor ever have been on the big money spend spin round. 

Ciao   
Dude, I am talking about those of us in the industry not the consumer....ciao

Dude

Thanks for being much more specific.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

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Re: How Golf Lost Its Way By Peter Kostis
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 04:17:19 AM »
Paul

Quote
To fail to make any link between RTJ, target golf and the negative effects therein would however be a mistake. Try fours hours of boredom on a Dave Thomas course and then try to pursued me the ghost of RTJ didn't have a hand in it.

What would really be a mistake would be broadly shitcanning a person's body of work on the basis of having played just one of their courses.

You may well be right, but on the basis of one course played, you have no right to make that assertion.

It's not like there's a shortage of RTJ courses out there for you to play and test your assumption...

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