What is special about Turnberry?

[Andrew_Roberts]

Besides the scenery and Hotel.  From TV the course looks rather bland with little trouble.  The scores are almost always good there but so are the champions.  The course seems to lack a number of deep bunkers and it also seems to not have the humps and bumps of Sandwich.  

1)Why is it considered a great course?

2)Some year when I get around to taking my pilgrimage to Scotland, how does Turnberry compare to the other greats on the Island.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Nothing special!?  Of the 96 British Isle courses I have been lucky enough to play (including all the Open courses multiple times) it is my personal #1.  

The Ailsa has wonderful flow, quietly building in crescendo with the opening 4 holes to the first extended view of the oceanfront with the exposed 5th and a doubling of the winds.  It is a survival test for a while before you go inland at twelve for a brief rest.  In a stiff breeze (ambient conditions at Turnberry) you survive by jumping from safe position to safe position, much like a frog from lilypad to lilypad.  There are some holes that after a safe drive friends of mine (reasonably golfers) have actually putted up fairways to keep out of gales!  

Don't be swayed by the flatness of the TV screens, because the tee shot at 15 and the approach at 16 are visually terrifying (remember - most of us don't hit it as long as they do).  

The green complexes at Turnberry are inspired - not convoluted like the Old Course, rather more rolling and falling off in just the places you would rather they not.

The finishing holes are a climax to remember where anything can happen (witness Watson's victory of a few hours ago).  I have putted for eagle at 17 and have also picked up for X before I have gotten to the green.

I have putted for dollars at the little green just down the steps of the hotel at 10:30 at night as the sun sets over the crag and the bagpiper pipes a tibute to the day.  Tell me how anybody who loves golf is un moved by something like that.

Forget it man, I often find myself thinking when can I go back to Turnberry.  The trips I arrange for others to Scotland always include Turnberry.  I have never heard one complaint.

JC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andrew Roberts,

If there is so little trouble, how did the tournament leader manage to double bogie the 18th hole twice in a row ?

[David_Tepper]

I think part of the problem is that watching golf on TV tends to flatten out the terrain of almost all golf courses- Augusta National is a prime example. The first thing anyone says when they go there is that the course has more hills and more elevation changes than appears on a TV screen.
The problem for links course on TV is even worse as there are no tree lined fairways to define the holes and the whole picture tends to be somewhat monochromatic.
I watched the European golf from Portmornack this weekend and that looked like pretty tame stuff as well. Having played there, I know it is not.

[ForkaB]

Turnberry is one of the top 3 courses in Scotland.  It gets dissed on this site from time to time by some people for the following reasons:

--It is more of an "aerial" game course than most great links
--the fairways have little movement--relative to other great links
--the greens are subtle rather than spectacular
--the design is largely through valleys rather than across or over their ridges, giving the impression of "containment"
--there is little "quirk" on the course
--it is a "new kid on the block" having been designed after the war, but a relative unknown
--it is in a beautiful setting (annoying the "anti-ocean effect syndrome" brigade)

That being said, it is a great course for the following reasons, many of which have been borught up by Jonathan.

--the course has great variety in it's hole design (differing types, lengths, shots required, risk/reward calculation, etc.)
--it requires and rewards well thought out and executed golf shots, hole after hole, shot after shot
--miscues tend to be punished by 1/2 shot penalties rather than 1 or 2 shot ones, leading to greater opportunity for recovery (with increased risk)
--the routing allows the course to "defend itself" in a number of types and direction of winds

Overall, Turnberry most closely resembles Muirfield and Birkdale amongst the Open venues, two other places that often don't get much respect from some on this site.  Why?  Hard to say......

[ForkaB]

PS--this is a bit off topic, but did anyone else notice the scores that Watson and Mason recorded in "Duel in the Sun 2--THEY'RE BAAACK!" last weekend?  263 on a course no more than 2-300 yards shorter than what Nickalus and Watson played on 26 years ago.  In 1977 Watson's 268 and Nicklaus's 269 were felt to be anomalies--even though the two were both in their prime.  Third place was something like 10 back.  Either these guys are STILL good, or technology is making the game a lot easier--probably a combination of the two.

[T_MacWood]

After several years of observation I’m wondering the same thing as Andrew. Most “great” golf courses exhibit a certain amount of strategic interest or possess a number of individual ‘great’ holes or feature some unique or memorable natural attributes or hazards.

The two most famous holes appear to be 9 and 10. Nine has always struck me as more awkward than interesting and 10 appears to be a good hole, but fairly straight forward. Often memorable courses offer a solid set of par-4s, and the par-3s put it over the top, or a combination of outstanding par-3s and par-5s. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. Does the course have any world class golf holes?

For some reason the course has always seemed slightly off or odd to me. Perhaps because it is basically man-made--the golf course, the man-made dunes, the coastline and the way they interrelate seems unnatural and artificial to me—far too regular and not typical of most natural dune complexes/coast lines I’ve observed….it doesn’t look like natural dunescape/links land. And in comparison to other man-made pseudo links—Lido, Timber Point, Kiawah, Whistling Straits and Arcadian Bluffs--Mackenzie Ross chose not to push the envelope. Was that a mistake on his part?

(Despite the two doubles on 18 the co-leader managed to shoot 67-64-65-67) Why are St.Andrew’s greens convoluted?

[ForkaB]

Tom

I'm not sure how many links course you have actually seen, or even seen pictures of, but if you have seen more than a few you should know that there is no one standard form to linksland, or even to the coastlands in the US (which you may be more familiar with)--even though virtually all of them are not, technically, linksland.  On the linksland on which I have played (probably 1/4 of the 200 or so true links courses in the world) there are regularities and irregularities, dunes and raised beaches, sharp edges and soft ones.  The Old Course is as different form Ballybunion as Royal St. Georges is from Turnberry.  Hoylake and Dornoch, Brora and Birkdale, Lahinch and  Newcastle are completely different landscapes, with different flora and fauna and different geological histories and completely different golf courses.

BTW--Turnberry does not have a "bad" hole and, IMHO, 4 and 15 (3's), 2, 10 and 16 (4's) and 17 (5) are world class golf holes.

[Andy]

If you ask the players, they all think Turnberry is one of the best 3 of the BO courses, and not just because in benign weather low scores can occur.  ALL GREAT courses in this region are going to exposed in non-windy conditions, as they have to be able to be "playable" when the wind does blow.  I think that is why the players were upset with RSG, as the course was so close to the edge in setup that under windy conditions, it introduced an element of luck that some were not comfortable with.  We have debated RSG enough, I think, so this post is really to express my opinion that Turnberry is at the very top of the list, and this is also the players opinion.  It always produces a great champion, and, has an incredible mix of holes, dramatic views, and the best conditioned greens in Scotland.  

[THuckaby2]

Jonathan and Rich nailed it - not much more to say.  Turnberry is very special.

I was there day before they closed it for Sr. Open and well, those guys are good.  It is not an easy golf course... even absent wind, those are some damn fine scores.

Kintyre is pretty damn good also, btw.

TH

[T_MacWood]

Rich
It appears to me that Mackenzie Ross followed the Army Corps of engineers script for re-building seaside dunes--the Outer Banks of NC being a prime example of their handywork. A primary dunes of a consistant height and depth and a secondary dune of the consistant height and depth, with a trough in between. It looks like MR chose lay many of the holes down in the trough. Does the course feel as natural as the other famous links in Scotland?

The character of the land prior to the war was much more varied and irregular. And surprisingly included some large sandhills in the interior.

Six world class holes--I'd say there very few great courses that could boast half that number. What makes #2 world class?

[Ran Morrissett]

On the plus side, the setting is so special that the golfer wants to stay out on the course til dark. Forget the X's and O's, what higher praise is there?!

On the down side, I can't help but think that a few of the architects that we have done Feature Interviews with could build a better course if they were given the same property as Mackenzie Ross. Specifically, I question the routing and the merit of the inland holes 1, 2, 12-14, and 18.

Not that any of those six holes are bad (and 13 has one of the best green complexes out there) but why even build holes 1 and 2? Let the course start on 3. Why go inland after the 10th? Afterall, the property out by 11 green, 12-14 is not but so interesting. Why route holes 5, 6, 7, 8 through valleys without mixing it up? Given the routing, who can't help but feel disappointment as one leaves the 11th tee and the shoreline? Pebble's routing is far more appealing, at least to me.

Like Rich says, the course's honesty is reminiscent of Birkdale. For some, that's praise. For others, they'll take RSG and a course like Rye where for instance, the 4th is routed along the crest of the dune, the 6th plays diagonally over it, and the 13th calls for a completely blind approach (often from long distance) over a sand dune. That kind of variety is a mark of a great architect/routing and I'm not sure Turnberry is blessed with either.

Still, the setting with the gleaming white lighthouse and hotel is one of a kind spectacular...

Cheers,

[CHrisB]

I have no problem with the contention that #4 is world-class, and I think the par-3 6th and the 7th tee shot are excellent as well. The 10th (esp. the tee shot) is a tremendous hole, and the stretch of the world-class 15th through the 17th is good enough to (almost) make you forget that you left the shoreline back at 11.

But in the end, so much of Turnberry's charm is due to the setting--put the same layout in the town of Carnoustie and it might be another Western Gailes (which ain't bad), a solid course that would probably fly under the radar.

A solid layout + world-class setting = a must play

[ForkaB]

Tom and Ran

Surely you can do better than that!  I'm almost tempted to compare your "invectives" about Turnberry to what Dennis Healey once said about the arguments in Parilament of Margaret Thatcher's Chancellor of the Exchequer, Geoffrey Howe........

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am actually a little afraid to say Rich nailed it with Margaret Thatcher's name in the post before. Oh Rich hit Turnberry on the head or in the Bush as it be. I could not have said it better. Only Dornoch and TOC do more for me. Ran also hit it with stay out there till dark. Many an evening I have walked a pint or 3 out across the course to 9 tee feeling on top of the world. To merely look at it from the hotel is not enough connection with these proud links.

[ian]

I wonder if this courses criticism comes from the belief that it could have been better given the site. The course is really, really good and well worth playing; but its hard not to look at some of the coastline and wonder what was possible.

What comes to mind for me is that the course doesn't have a "postage stamp" or "foxy" (one truly remarkable hole), and that would be my mild criticism of the course.

Still a great course.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I think you may have confused my questions--regarding the course's relative naturalness and asking for clarification of the world class merits of #2--with argument. I suppose a difficult question could be confused with argument...however they don't appear to be difficult questions.

Ran brings up an interesting point about the routing--not unlike your exercize with CPC's routing. The difference here is Mackenzie Ross was presented with a blank canvas...his only limitation being his imagination. Did M-R get the most out of the coastline and the dunes? Would the course have been better off with the clubhouse near the lighhouse and/or perhaps a figure 8 routing like Casa de Campo or PBGL?

Ian
Your comment about the course not have a truly remarkable hole is what I was trying to get at with my question regarding its world class holes (or lack there of)....I guess others have more liberal definition of world class.

It sounds like the some of the parts (along with the world class setting) is greater than the individual holes.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Is nine not world class? I know Tom M called it awkward, but I don't buy that. One of the more thrilling tee shots you will find, to a diagonal fairway with spine that can deflect balls. The green is open, but suits the approach, given the length. Doak's criticism in the Confidential Guide, regarding the holes excess length from the tips isn't true with today's technology.

I do not believe it is the best course in Scotland, but isn't GOLF's ranking at 18th pretty fair? It comes fourth in Scotland.

Agreed that the course would be better starting at three, but so would Pebble. I don't think that makes PB any less worthy.

[Andy]

Ben, well said.  I continue to think it is head and shoulders better than RSG, and the only reason it is out of the rota are financial reasons due to difficulty in reaching the site.  Surely, it deserves another Open.

[ian]

Ben,

I'm with the two Toms (the "In Living Colour" joke aside), I don't particularly get the joy of hole number nine. An undeniably great test and the setting of the back tee is thrilling; but its blind, and the chances of finding the fairway in the heat of the summer are almost nil. So many great holes make me wish to return to try them again, that one just simply doesn't.

And again I'll say I still really like the whole course. Funny the first two holes didn't bother me, but may be the 40 mph wind gave me a completely unique feeling for them?

[Paul Richards]

Ian;

I just read your title to this thread.  It sort of reminds me of the guy that asks "how much is that?"  

If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

If you have to ask about Turnberry, you don't get it.

[ian]

Paul,

its not my thread, I was just responding to it; but i have the same question. I like the course a lot; but it didn't blow me away. I have travelled to see a lot of special courses and for the most part I can breakdown what I like. The only question is whether I can transfer some of that inspiration into my own work. I have a few great courses that I have visited, where I was unable to make particular notations that i wanted to borrow from. Turnberry happens to be one of them. Again I liked the course, but nothing particularly jumped up and said this is amazing.

Now the ball is in your court Paul, tell me what is so great without saying "it just is and you don't get it"

[ForkaB]

I personally like the start at Turnberry very much.  1 is a classic links hole, full of mystery and fuzzy definition.  An excellent short 4 whcih is very hard to hit in 2 on a downwind day.   2 is "world class" because it has interest on the tee (how do I shape the shot, do I dare hit the hard draw, how do I avoid going too far left, etc.), on the second shot (clubbing, particularly since the wind is in hte opposite direction of the 1st, side hill lie) and on the green (fall off the the left, well bunkered, long--clubbing issue again).  3, which reverses direction again is a reverse mirror image of 2 with a good green.

PS--for those who question, to me the term "world class" applies to any hole which one could imagine substitued onto any other course of similar charaacter without demeaning that course.  You could put 2-Turnberry on RSG, Carnoustie, Lytham, Troon, etc. without it looking out of class.  IMO, of course...

[Paul Richards]

Ian:

Thanks for the reply.  Turnberry is very special for many reasons.  First, it is a big, championship golf course.  The one you saw last week at the Senior Open is one I have seen, but I have also seen it under many other weather conditions, including driving-sideways-pelting-rain and sleet and even hail!  The scores would have been much higher if not for the picture-perfect weather they experienced.

There's plenty more and I will follow-up when I get a chance!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

An undeniably great test and the setting of the back tee is thrilling; but its blind, and the chances of finding the fairway in the heat of the summer are almost nil.

Ian,
The top level of the fairway, which garners generally flatter lies is only a 220-yard carry from the back tees, so even in summer a tee ball landing there should hold. The hole is clearly defined by drive, as the eighth at Pebble is defined by approach. As for the blind nature, that was part of what I found thrilling  

The first hole does little for me, except the ability to drive the green with a helping wind. However, in that case a driver would not be needed to get to the green. I think the drive and pitch are not particularly thoughtful, even with the four bunkers.

The second is another that does not resonate. The bunkers that Rich alludes to are something like 280-300 yards away, meaning a three-wood takes those out of play and leaves an easy approach to a rather simple green complex.

The third hole I really like and the stretch of four-twelve, I believe are excellent.