[DMoriarty]

I am starting to remember why these conversations get bogged down.   CB Macdonald himself considered the hole a Redan.  And Merion considered it a Redan.   And many others who were in a position to know did as well.   Yet that isn't good enough in this crowd.
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Bill, while Wilson wrote extensively about agronomy issues and constructing Merion East in particular (and a bit about bunker aesthetics,) he wrote almost nothing about the planning process.  Most of what he wrote about planning golf courses involved effusive praise for the help provided by CBM at NGLA, but the praise doesn't get into any holes in particular. (One of the great ironies here is there is very little actual evidence of what Wilson might have contributed, pre-construction, to the final layout plan.)

As for Merion's Redan, the bunker was originally the location of an an old barn built which had been built into the side of the bank. I cannot imagine that CBM and Whigham  (and possibly Barker before them) would have missed noticing this potential green site when they first examined the property in June 1910, or when they were working on the plans with Wilson at NGLA for two days, or when they returned to Merion in early spring 1911 to reexamine the property and to choose and approve the final layout plan.

As for your other questions, they don't really make any sense to me given what else I know about CBM's extensive involvement with the planning.

[Tim_Weiman]

David,

I'm real curious about your comments regarding the barn and the green site for the 3rd hole. Is there any photographic documentation? More, generally, was there much photographic documentation of the entire property per construction?

Thanks!

[DMoriarty]

Tim, I've never seen a photograph of the old barn, but if I recall correctly the outline of the barn does show up on at least one old RR atlas which included buildings.  I've only seen one photograph pre-opening, a photo of the clubhouse and 18th green. Aside from the giant "Alps" mound in the background it doesnt show much.   I think it was included in my IMO to demonstrate that the "Alps" had already been constructed before Wilson went abroad.

[Tim_Weiman]

David,

Really wish we had more documentation of famous courses preconstruction, in part because I 'd love to understand the thought process behind the routing.

I remember spending time with Tom Doak at Stonewall before the second course was built. There were one or two buildings that had to come down, but interestingly, they didn't prevent Tom from visualizing the golf hole he wanted to build on the land occupied by the buildings.

I guess I can imagine seeing the 3rd hole at Merion despite a barn sitting there. Maybe, but maybe not. The architect still has to do the complete routing and you never know whether a particular green site or hole necessarily makes the final cut no matter how good it appears stand alone.

It's a good discussion point. Was #3 so obvious and so good that it just had to be included in Merion's routing? Or did it just complete a puzzle with other pieces (holes) more influential?

[Bryan Izatt]

In the undated photo below from the Hagley collection, The new 10th green is in place and the old 10th green (Alps) is still in place.  Considering the original routing of the 1st hole and the location of the original 10th green one is left wondering about the routing skills of Barker, or Wilson, or CBM or whoever did the routing.  Why would they put the 10th green on the left edge of the 1st fairway around 200 yards from the 1st tee.  Does this look like a novice routing error?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bryan,

Thanks for that photo.  Pre-coffee, I can't recall the exact year of that re-routing of 10-13, but the photo does show some interesting things.

We know that the bunker work was on going under Wilson and Flynn, spreading out the bed sheets and what not.  Of interest is that in the lower portion, the 8th green appears to have one new bunker front left, but the back bunker appears not to have fresh sand it it, and also appears to be one of the old style "trench bunkers".  In other words, it looks original.  

Also, the green is square while others have been rounded off to the final Merion style.  Another clue that it has not been rebuilt is the color of the green turf, which is much lighter and mottled than the greens that look modern.  That said, the current green fill pad really hasn't changed all that much on 8.

Harder to tell in the distance, but comparing it to later aerials, the back nine seems finished, with the possible exception of 18, which still looks like an old, square fill pad with small bunkers.  Obviously the entry road hasn't moved yet, and it appears that the first tee was moved later than in this version of the routing, so it looks like 18 G would have to move slightly and be rebuilt after this.  It begs the question of whether they knew much earlier that this re-routing was coming, and thus, they kept 18 as was for a while simply to avoid rebuilding it again after a short time frame.

I also wonder why 8G would only get one bunker (and green shape and bunker would change again later) The best guess is that this was one of their better greens agronomically or a club favorite as it was.

So, it gives us some clue as to how long the White Faces of Merion took to fully develop. 

[Mark McKeever]

In the undated photo below from the Hagley collection, The new 10th green is in place and the old 10th green (Alps) is still in place.  Considering the original routing of the 1st hole and the location of the original 10th green one is left wondering about the routing skills of Barker, or Wilson, or CBM or whoever did the routing.  Why would they put the 10th green on the left edge of the 1st fairway around 200 yards from the 1st tee.  Does this look like a novice routing error?

Bryan,

If the original first tee is located back behind the "new" 13th green, I dont think the Alps green was reachable from that tee.  It was left of the second shot and I think less in play than you think.  What makes you think 200 yards?

Mark

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark,

I measured it on Google Earth.  It might be at most 230 if the tee went way back between the clubhouse and new 13th green.  It looks like the old 11th tee would also have been even more in range from the 1st tee.

[ChipOat]

Bryan: Original 10th green and 11th tee box needed to be there as the property south of Cobbs Creek where current 10th tee, 11th green and 12th tee are located had not been acquired until later (early 1920's, I think).

Jeff: 1923 the year for 10-13 construction/re-routing; ready for 1924 u.S. Amateur.

Mark: Original #10 Alps green and #11 tee box often reached from #1 tee box with a big snap hook.  Trees planted behind 10th green to protect and removed when original hole taken out of play.

[Mark McKeever]

Must have been a big hook...using google earth its about 50 yards offline if you are correctly hitting to the corner of the dogleg.

MM

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,  my guess is the photo is about 1925, same as the one I posted above.  I think the original 1st hole played well right of those features, more toward Golf House Road.  Looking at google earth, I think Mark's estimation of 50 yards off line may even understate it a bit.   Given the safety standards and golf equipment of the time, I doubt the positioning of these features caused much of an issue.

Also, keep in mind that Merion's Alps green was protected by that huge artificial fortress.   Here is a photo of No. 1 from the 1916 Amateur.  Note the the enormity of the earthworks/Alps complex on No. 10 in the left side of the photo.   Note also the look of the early bunkering style, particularly the crossing bunker. It doesn't quite match what most people expect at Merion, but I like it.



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Jeff Brauer offers quite a bit of speculation about the early development of the course based on his analysis of the photo posted by Bryan.   Unfortunately, most of the speculation misses the mark.  
   -  For example, Jeff speculates that the 8th green "looks original" based on the squarish shape of the green, the "trench bunker" shape of the back bunker, and the "color of the green turf" in the old black and white photo aerial.   The 8th green was not  original.  It was moved and rebuilt sometime before the 1916 Amateur at Hugh Wilson's direction (and presumably with Flynn doing the construction.)  
  - Jeff also intimates that the 18th green shown in the photo was a primitive affair, and speculates that this green must have been moved and rebuilt after the 1st tee was moved. I think this would be news to Merion.  The oblique I posted earlier in the thread provides a much better look at the 18th green at around the same time.


The Original Eighth Hole
The original 8th hole sounds like it was an interesting affair, but perhaps it was a bit too much for a club like Merion Cricket Club, which within its huge membership had not only quality golfers but also many novice golfers.  The original green was located to the left of the current green (and to the left of the green pictured in the photo posted by Bryan.)   Apparently it sat a bit on the back/side of the hillside and mounds, and reportedly it sloped away from the direct line of play.  Judging from the descriptions of the hole, many complained that the green was too severe to hold approach shots, even though the hole (and thus the approach) was relatively short.  Reports indicate, though, that the proper strategy was actually to drive well to the right of the direct line of play, more toward the out of bounds.  Reportedly, from this angle one could approach the green more into the side of the hill, and use the slope of the land to help hold the ball on the green.  

Whether the original hole as constructed actually functioned the way it was supposed we don't know, but it is interesting strategic concept nonetheless.  And one perhaps familiar to those who have studied the work of CB Macdonald.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

More or less surprised than finding out that Hugh Wilson didn't design their golf courses? (insert smiley.....)

[DMoriarty]

More or less surprised than finding out that Hugh Wilson didn't design their golf courses? (insert smiley.....)

You lost me.

[ChipOat]

Mark and David,

Yes, it was a big hook, but it did happen.

My source on that passed away around 1985, but he was a life-long member who played the Haverford Course and every iteration of the East - including as a contestant in the 1916, 1924 and (I think) the 1930 U.S. Amateur.  He said he was known to have done it himself more than once from 1912 until 1925.

I spoke to him about this in the early 1970's.  He was playing 3-5X/week and his memory was quite lucid.

Therefore, I believe that his recounting of big hooks off the original first tee that found the original 10th green is highly likely to be accurate.

[mike_malone]

 It looks they built up the back of #11 tee as well.

[DMoriarty]

Chip,  I don't doubt that it occasionally happened.  Golf shots go every which way.  But did it happen so often so as to be considered "a routing error" as was suggested by Bryan?  Given the equipment, distance, angle, mounding,  trees, and the era, I really doubt it.   

You didn't happen to ask your source what year they finally stopped calling the 3rd Hole a Redan, did you?

[DMoriarty]

Someone asked offline if I would post a photo of Merion's Old Alps Green.  I don't have an aerial from when it was in use, but here is a snippet from an aerial after it was no longer in use.  The back bunker has been grassed in.



And a two shots of the green from the 1916 Amateur:




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Also, here is another early image of the Original 13th green at Merion where one can really see just how closely the creek surrounded the green.  Again if squint I can see a horseshoe.  

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan: Original 10th green and 11th tee box needed to be there as the property south of Cobbs Creek where current 10th tee, 11th green and 12th tee are located had not been acquired until later (early 1920's, I think).

Jeff: 1923 the year for 10-13 construction/re-routing; ready for 1924 u.S. Amateur.

Mark: Original #10 Alps green and #11 tee box often reached from #1 tee box with a big snap hook.  Trees planted behind 10th green to protect and removed when original hole taken out of play.

Chip,

From my memory of the deeds, I understand that they later added the land where 11 green and 12 tee are.  There might have been a small slice added at the back of the 10th tee, but it wouldn't have lengthened the hole much, so i was thinking that 10 didn't need to cross the street.  BTW the original 12th must have been an interesting hole.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mark, David,

The old 10th green and back berm must extend at least 60 or 70 yards north of the road.  There is only 140 yards or so between Ardmore and Golf House Rd, so the 10th green and berm take up half the available space.  The left side of #1 fairway, defined by bunkers is apparently right behind the berm.  It just seems shoe-horned in to me - not a elegant routing.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Interesting pictures, as always.  I'm a bit perplexed by the one of the 1st.  Where do you suppose the camera was and what direction was it pointing?  Looks like a road in foreground right.  And, I don't get the big trees behind.  From the aerial it doesn't appear that there were any big trees anywhere around the 1st green.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan, if we accept your measures, then there was 70-80 yard playing corridor and then a giant berm surrounding the green supposedly in danger.  Doesn't seem like an issue to me, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

As for that photo of the first hole, my guess is that it was taken from Golf House Road looking south and that those trees are well in the background.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bryan,

Like you, that one confused me, but its easy to do, I guess.  I would agree that it would be golf house road, and I think you can see Ardmore in the distance, but I wouldn't expect to see what looks like a hill and big trees behind one green from that angle.

But, as always, I do appreciate David posting pics from his collection for us to enjoy.

[JC Jones]

Bryan,

Like you, that one confused me, but its easy to do, I guess.  I would agree that it would be golf house road, and I think you can see Ardmore in the distance, but I wouldn't expect to see what looks like a hill and big trees behind one green from that angle.

But, as always, I do appreciate David posting pics from his collection for us to enjoy.

I agree, these pictures are fantastic.  I do struggle with the one that is purportedly of the first.  For starters, in order for those trees to be way in the background they'd have to be the trees where 10 tee currently is now, which would also be downhill from 1 green.  Also, what is supposed to be the backside of the Alps looks to be about twice as tall as the other pictures posted and again, surrounded by trees.

To me, the land forms look much more like the area around 6 than 1.

[Mark McKeever]

David, thanks for posting the pictures.  That early photo of 13 green is awesome!  Look at the movement in the green!

Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

Honestly, as I look at the big hill and trees, I am not sure I recall any landform quite like that at Merion East.  Could the photo be mislabeled?

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