Hope Valley CC (Ross / Silva), Durham, NC -- A Photo Tour!! - Hole 18 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

"At Hope Valley, our job wasn't to create an exact replica of the course as it was in 1926.  You can't do that.  Our job was to give the members a course that's true to the spirit of Ross's design, but at the same time can stand up to the capabilities of the modern player.  It's a restoration, not a reproduction."

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7517.msg145369.html#msg145369


[Perry] Maxwell did indeed work at Hope Valley in the late 1930s... The work at Hope Valley was a massive green redesign, along the lines of what Maxwell did at Philadelphia Country Club in the early 1930s and more extensive than his work at Gulph Mills during the 1930s.  From talking with the people at Hope Valley they think he redid over half of the course, if not the whole thing. -- Chris Clouser

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7517.msg145485.html#msg145485







Very downhill 420 yard par-4 1st that traverses some severe property before the approach plays uphill to a plateau green:










Fairly straightforward 200 yard par-3 2nd that plays slightly downhill to a large, tilted, and squared-off green:




An interesting tee shot at the 370 yard 3rd, where the golfer must choose his angle of attack carefully as a stream runs along the fairway to the left and OB lurks right.




As is common at HVCC, bunkers are set well back from the green's edge to create a foreshortening affect:

[Jeff Shelman]

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the entire course.

I have played there three times (twice when I barely knew anything about GCA) and thought it was good. Very sold golf course and a cool vibe.

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

I know nothing about agronomy, but do those greens look odd? Their color is notably different than the rest of the course. Time of year? Am I seeing things?

Thanks for the start of another interesting thread.

[rjsimper]

The greens are champion bermuda, changed from bent summer before last. Champion tends to have the deeper, darker green look than common, (or at least that's what I've noticed on the courses that have it around here)

Not a huge fan of 1 as an opener...taking driver out of your hands and being a nearly must-hit fairway.  But I do really like this golf course a lot.

[Cory Lewis]

Many people know my feelings about this course.  I think it belongs in the top 100.  I'm glad Mark is doing a photo tour so that those who don't know about this course can get a feel for it and hopefully make time to play it if they are in NC.  No, I'm not a member, I just think highly of the place.

[Carl Johnson]

edited

[Brad Tufts]

Ditto on feelings that HVCC is very, very good.

The Carolina Ross courses tend to have a certain look, with pine straw, sandy ground, etc., where the Northeast Ross courses tend to be more quirky with rock outcroppings, etc.

HVCC looks very much more like a Northeast Ross than a Carolina Ross despite its location.

Interesting also that HVCC is pretty much a housing course, but being a 1920s housing course is much cooler than a modern planned community, as most of the houses date from that time period and appear as part of the landscape/experience.

[A.G._Crockett]

I grew up in Durham and still spend a fair amount of time there; I've played HVCC before and after lots of different work.  Common bermuda fairways to hybrid bermuda, the Silva restoration/renovation, and now the conversion from bent to champion greens.

HVCC might be the most underrated course in NC, and well up a list of underrated courses anywhere.  There isn't a weak hole on the golf course, IMO, including #1, and several holes are just classics.  The original routing is completely intact, I believe, and Silva undid a number of changes that had been made over the years and completely rebuilt the greens.

There is a story that Hogan played an exhibition there and took the club to task for piping a creek (decision of the greens committee, I think, not the city) that runs down the left side of #11 because that hole had been on a list Nelson had made of his 18 favorite holes from the courses of his winning streak.  No idea if the story is really true or not, but Silva wasn't able to "unpipe" the creek even if there was any thought of doing so.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I'm a big fan of this course. I think the routing is practically the best, if not THE best, of any course I have played.
I have only one complaint with one hole, but we will get to that when the tour rolls around. 

[Mark Saltzman]

The 4th is one of several long par-4s that is made longer because of an uphill approach. 




Thankfully, the green is open in front and very deep, and the back-to-front tilt of the green will help to keep a long approach on the green.  Being long of the green, however, is dead.




The 5th is a 400 yard par-4 that plays over a directional bunker.  The land tilts hard to the left over the crest of the hill down to a stream that is blind from the tee:






The 200 yard and extremely uphill par-3 6th completes a difficult opening stretch. 




Though the green is open in front, a false-front will catch any shots coming up just a bit short:

[Mark McKeever]

Thanks for the tour so far Mark!  Looks pretty neat, but I keep referring back to Cory's post when looking at these pictures regarding a top 100 status.  While it looks good, do we really think that this should be ahead of places like Vesper, Beverly, Worcester, and Charles River which reside in the next 100??  I would need to play it to be certain, but my inital thought is leaning away...



Mark

[Bruce Wellmon]

Thanks for the tour so far Mark!  Looks pretty neat, but I keep referring back to Cory's post when looking at these pictures regarding a top 100 status.  While it looks good, do we really think that this should be ahead of places like Vesper, Beverly, Worcester, and Charles River which reside in the next 100??  I would need to play it to be certain, but my inital thought is leaning away...
Mark

Mark,  I think it's worthy as well.
         I would highly recommend a round at HV.        
                                                                     Bruce
I'm at a dance recital rehersal so Ive got time. I'm going on memory. I think HV deserves to be top 100. If not, it should be real close. Why?
The land. One recent thread as to why Holston should/shouldn't be top 100, stated a lack of landforms. The property at HV has significant movement. #3 is the only flat hole I can think of. Way downhill on 1,10, 16. Uphill on 4, 17,  rollercoaster on 8, way up on 12.
I simply think the routing takes full advantage of the land. 10,11,12,13 is a prime example of that.  A medium downhill par 4, an uphill brute of a par4, a shorter way uphill par 4 requiring a precise approach and 13, which tempts the player to try and drive the green.
Weaknesses? Par 3's similar (longer) length on 3/4. Lastly, 2 par 5's if memory serves right. One seemingly a lengthened par 4.
But that's being picky. So if you don't think it's top 100................
#thenew101

[rjsimper]

I think my statemate is overstating T100, but it's definitely in that "50 to 200" class that is separated by a very slim margin.

And yes, Hope Valley is most definitely in Durham, NC...not Raleigh. Raleigh can wait for a photo tour of Raleigh CC

[Jerry Kluger]

I haven't played Hope Valley but I have played Raleigh CC which is a Ross course as well and it appears to me that Raleigh has much more dramatic bunkering and more green contours.  What do you think?

[rjsimper]

I haven't played Hope Valley but I have played Raleigh CC which is a Ross course as well and it appears to me that Raleigh has much more dramatic bunkering and more green contours.  What do you think?

I would probably agree with the green contours part wholeheartedly, the bunkering maybe less so though I don't disagree totally. However I prefer the routing at HVCC by a distance.

[Jerry Kluger]

Ryan: I played Raleigh in a shotgun start so I don't remember the hole sequences but I did feel that some of the bunkers were very dramatic - one par 3 was surrounded by some really incredible bunkers.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 7th is a dramatic 300-yard par-4.  From the tee, the land first heaves left and then right, and most well-played tee shots will leave a tricky and uphill 80 yard approach over a massive false front.




The green may be the best on the course, with substantial back-to-front tilt and a pair of diagonal ridges






The 8th is a long par-5 that traverses two huge rolls in the fairway -- golfers playing the 8th better be comfortable with blindness!






The final hole on the front-nine is well-bunkered and plays along the boundary to the right.




Tee shots down the centre will face a blind approach over the cross-bunker, but challenging the bunkers at the perimeters of the fairway will leave a clear view of the green:

[Mark Pritchett]

Looks like it has a Cape Fear kind of feel. 

Bruce and others that have played both-What Ross course would HVCC resemble to you? 

[rjsimper]

Maybe Sedgefield would be the closest I could think of.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Looks like it has a Cape Fear kind of feel. 
Bruce and others that have played both-What Ross course would HVCC resemble to you? 

Mark, I think HV and CF share good or great land. When I played CF I was expecting flat land as it's essentially on the coast. It has surprising movement. Kris Spence reworked Cape Fear. CF has more width to the corridors, I remember a larger "scale" to it. HV has signifiacnt elevation changes. More than I remember at Sedgefield.
HV only has 3 parallel fairways. 1, 18, the driving range and 10 line up. Otherwise it's sequential and not parallel.
To answer your question, I'm not sure. It makes me think of Sedgefield, and Biltmore Forest. But I think it's rather unique. 

[Mark Saltzman]

After crossing the length of the clubhouse, and passing by the 1st tee and practice area, the golfer arrives at the picturesque 10th tee.  Like the 1st hole, the 10th plays from in front of the clubhouse and drops into the valley.




The green, as seen from the front-left, is very deep and falling off left and long...




The 11th is an awesome hole.  At over 420 yards and playing uphill this hole is very difficult.  There is OB right and a stream that runs along the left, but there is ample fairway width...




The uphill approach to the 11th green:




The 12th doglegs around a pair of carry bunkers, and is another strong down then up par-4.




An excellent green at the 12th with a false-front short...




And interesting green shape with a small finger at the back-left and significant tilt from right to left...




The 13th is a short par-4, perhaps driveable for a select few.  From the tee the golfer must decide whether to challenge a cross-bunker that sits 100 yards short of the green:








A strong mid-length par-3 at the 14th with deep fronting bunkers and a back-to-front tilted green that makes a miss long a disaster:

[Cory Lewis]

Alright, we're almost to the one thing Bruce doesn't like about the course 

[Mark Saltzman]

Alright, we're almost to the one thing Bruce doesn't like about the course 

Yeah, it's awkward, though I think the fairway bunkering makes more sense with the current set up.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Alright, we're almost to the one thing Bruce doesn't like about the course 

True, there is one thing I don't like about the course. When you come off 13 green, if you turn left you are basically on 15 tee. 14 tee, a par 3, is off the back right of 13 green. So, you play 14, and walk back almost to 13 green to tee off. Awkward ? Or just drop your bag on 15 tee and pick 'em up after you play the par 3? I think 15 used to be a par 4, and it morphed into a par 5.That's my one complaint. 16 could be a par 5, or perhaps used to be a par 5. So if we "need " a par 5 , should it have been 15 or 16? Or should the course be a par 69?  Or since Streamsong made the walk back okay, I just made something out of nothing.

[Mark Saltzman]

My understanding is that the 15th was lengthened from a long par-4 to a short par-5 and as a result an awkward walkback from the 14th green to the 15th tee was created.  Still, the 15th is another excellent hole where Ross makes excellent use of more severe land and I think the current bunker scheme works well with the lengthened tees




On the left side of the fairway, guarded by a deep fairway bunker, is a turbo boost...




The uphill approach to the green...




The 16th was once a par-5 but now plays as a 460 yard par-4.  Though blind from the tee, the golfer has a sense that playing left is ideal...




And he is correct as the fairway tilts right and bailed out tee shots will find the rough and lose precious roll yardage




The 17th is a 400 yard par-4 where the golfer must fit a tee shot between a stream on the right and trees on the left.




Hope Valley finishes with a demanding uphill 210 yard par-3 with a shallow green, foreshortening bunkers and a false front!