[Tommy Williamsen]

I have to be one of the prime potential customers for these types of places.  I love to travel.  I much prefer private golf over public options , I love "pure golf" clubs and I probably could afford it.  Nonetheless, every time I have thought about such an option, the decision not to pursue it has been an easy decision. 

For pure golf travel there countless great options out there and I would hate to tie money up in one destination. 

Jason, you are a prime potential member, but the reason you hesitate to join is one of the primary reasons some clubs fail. I had mentioned that over the last fifteen years I have brought a bunch of guys to one of my national clubs.  All love the course, the staff, the accommodations, and the other few local members that are there.  None has joined.  They play off my membership.  I don't mind it but it doesn't help the club be financially viable.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Almost every destination club had early struggles, even including Sand Hills.  The first traunch of members were very passionate and bought in before the accolades.  SH knows what they are and they deliver it very well.

All of these clubs take good and long-term committed people - owner, staff and members alike.  Most that struggled did so due to niche and cost.

The early secret to Sand Hills was is wasn't particularly expensive to join.  Many of the follow-on clubs tried to chase big dollars for memberships and that really didn't turn out very well at all.  Today, it is relatively affordable to join most of these clubs - a nice return to the SH model.

I can't speak for all of the clubs, but Dismal River adheres to a quality/value model.  It's pretty simple, we want to make it within reach of as many people as possible - people who want to come out a few times for a few days and have an exclusive experience with friends.  People are what makes a great club.  The experience is your product - it all you have.

As far as commitment, you have to live it and walk it everyday, even on the challenging days.  You have to listen and smile through setbacks. Across the golf industry, you miss a lot of birthdays and events so you need a strong, understanding family.  And, you need to take naps.

Chris, do you think there is a window of opportunity that is open for only so long after which it closes?

[Tommy Williamsen]

A movie once said, "If you build it they will come." That is kinda true, if you build it right they will come, if you're good people will find you and keep coming back.

Sam, I understand what you are saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. There seems to be some ineffable quality that is difficult to discern that makes a club more successful than another. 

I do agree that ownership would seem to be the key ingredient that can make or break a new club at this time.  I think owners need to have pockets deep enough to wait for a club to garner enough members to weather financial storms that inevitably come.  For some it may mean that a new owner with less debt to service may be the one to find success.

[Sam Morrow]

A movie once said, "If you build it they will come." That is kinda true, if you build it right they will come, if you're good people will find you and keep coming back.

Sam, I understand what you are saying but I don't think it is necessarily true. There seems to be some ineffable quality that is difficult to discern that makes a club more successful than another. 

I do agree that ownership would seem to be the key ingredient that can make or break a new club at this time.  I think owners need to have pockets deep enough to wait for a club to garner enough members to weather financial storms that inevitably come.  For some it may mean that a new owner with less debt to service may be the one to find success.

Isn't the saying something along the lines of the third owner being the one that makes money?

[Chris Johnston]

Tommy,

I don't think most destination clubs behave the way other clubs do wrt memberships, and that is where many owners were fooled.  I recall, in the halcion days, club memberships typically followed this... the first 1/3 were easy and came quickly, the middle 1/3 were a mix of new and referrals, and the last 1/3 took time.  This was accompanied by increases in the cost to join along the way and many also had lots to sell. 

The destination model requireds substantial costs in infrastructure and lodging, but the member inflow model was very different, and the market was saturated with new clubs.   Dick Youngscap and his group did it wisely - over the top wasn't in the plan, corresponding memberships weren't expensive at all, and there wasn't a ton of other options at the time.  When I joined there, I didn't really worry about the downstroke as I liked the guys and loved the place...I believed and believe it was where I belonged.  Had the number been substantially higher, I probably wouldn't have joined.  Cost mattered, even then.  I also helped bring in 3-4 guys as referrals, and had several friends who regretted not joining before the membership was filled.

We are now in the referral phase but have seen a nice surge in new energy with both the change in ownership and now the new course.  Memberships are very affordable today but will be increasing soon, always mindful that we always want to maintain a great value and service.  These keys must be coupled with a terrific experience and maintaining the vibe, energy, and exclusivity.

The window is always open, but you have to be accomodative and listen.  Most guys who visit have never seen a place like this.  Patience is indeed a virtue.

[Kris Shreiner]

 

No question that the ownership vision and sustained commitment to it is vital for success on the private side. Where Bandon's lessons have some application, despite it being public, is that it had one major owner driving the vision who went against what most industry folks would have thought possible. He proved that the herd isn't always right and that Bandon, when actually on the golf course, with caddies and not jammed numbers-wise, came about as close to a private golf course experience as could be found in the U.S. That has/is what has been the main constant in their success.The cheaper, winter links golf option hasn't hurt either, as few facilities can run their golf essentially year-round.

Jeff's point about the foundation of the private destination golf club being sound is key. You can only smoke and mirror so much. If the caliber and financial muscle isn't there to sustain the club's operations for the long haul, cracks soon show and the struggle ensues.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jim Nelson]

For the first owner/builder to succeed, three things are needed in today's market.
1. Experienced owner
2. Great design
3. Lots of capital

I listed them in reverse order of importance.  One out of three dooms the project.  Two out of three gives you a chance, but it's a long shot.  Better have lots of #3.  Three out of three gives the builder a punchers chance which goes up, again, with lots of #3. 

[Greg Tallman]

How about the "Fractional Ownership" (glorified time share) concept  used at Roaring Fork Club ( Nicklaus golf plus fishing plus proximity to skiing  in Aspen, CO?

Is this a feasible alternative?

www.roaringforkclub.com

Only reason Diamante is still alive and well today. Without the golf timeshare concept they would have been hard pressed to get through a very rough period after opening the golf course. The golf timeshare has stimulated their full ownership offerings as well and as far as I know they are pretty healthy today. 

The RF program was always meant to complement a multi-destination offering that offer the mountains (golf, ski, fishing), a winter/beach destination and one or more clubs with a unique/different "theme".

Had the economy not tanked when it did I have a feeling the program that was near launch would have been incredibly successful. Talk of revival starting to heat up these days. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

For the first owner/builder to succeed, three things are needed in today's market.
1. Experienced owner
2. Great design
3. Lots of capital

I listed them in reverse order of importance.  One out of three dooms the project.  Two out of three gives you a chance, but it's a long shot.  Better have lots of #3.  Three out of three gives the builder a punchers chance which goes up, again, with lots of #3. 

Jim, I think you are right on all three counts.  I would add that the food and lodging needs to be first rate. The owner can't be in it for a profit. It just may never come.  It is my understanding that Wayne Huizinga underwrites a portion of the budget at Diamond Creek.

[Greg Tallman]

For the first owner/builder to succeed, three things are needed in today's market.
1. Experienced owner
2. Great design
3. Lots of capital

I listed them in reverse order of importance.  One out of three dooms the project.  Two out of three gives you a chance, but it's a long shot.  Better have lots of #3.  Three out of three gives the builder a punchers chance which goes up, again, with lots of #3. 

Jim, I think you are right on all three counts.  I would add that the food and lodging needs to be first rate. The owner can't be in it for a profit. It just may never come.  It is my understanding that Wayne Huizinga underwrites a portion of the budget at Diamond Creek.

I thought he sold Diamond Creek?

[Tommy Williamsen]

For the first owner/builder to succeed, three things are needed in today's market.
1. Experienced owner
2. Great design
3. Lots of capital

I listed them in reverse order of importance.  One out of three dooms the project.  Two out of three gives you a chance, but it's a long shot.  Better have lots of #3.  Three out of three gives the builder a punchers chance which goes up, again, with lots of #3. 

Jim, I think you are right on all three counts.  I would add that the food and lodging needs to be first rate. The owner can't be in it for a profit. It just may never come.  It is my understanding that Wayne Huizinga underwrites a portion of the budget at Diamond Creek.

I thought he sold Diamond Creek?

Unless it just happened I don't think he sold the club.  He just purchased Frederica and I have friends at both clubs.  They enjoy some reciprocal privileges.

[Jeff Dawson]

Here is an interesting take by Tom Dunn a few years back....

http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=1660

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

I don't know by what standard you would deem them successful.

In some cases, owner/developer financial support allows them to continue to operate.
Without that support, they might perish, no matter how good the golf course/architecture.

I wonder how many are self sustaining without any form of subsidy from the owner/developer.

We'd probably agree that the courses found at Bandon, Kohler and Streamsong are exceptional, but, would they have endured without subsidies ?

I think location or rather, physical access is a key consideration.

I'll go back to Streamsong far sooner than I'll go to Bandon, Sand Hills or Kohler, because it's not that far off the beaten path, especially in the winter.  Whereas, Bandon and Sand Hills are a real out of the way trek for me.

So, I'd think it's a combination of the quality of the course, access and the facilities.
Oh, and one more thing,.........hospitality borne of an accomodating staff that "gets it"

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

I don't know by what standard you would deem them successful.

In some cases, owner/developer financial support allows them to continue to operate.
Without that support, they might perish, no matter how good the golf course/architecture.

I really have a low threshold for being successful.  Just being in the black with enough income to make repairs, keep the course in good shape, and being able to upgrade buildings etc would seem to be successful. I don't know the financial situations about a lot of clubs but I do know about a dozen or so and most need owners with deep pockets to keep the doors open.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Deep pockets seems to be a high priority.

I recall an owner/developer who built a terrific golf course, but, not quite in the demographically optimal location, stating that he'd never see a profit, but, his kids or grandkids might.

When talking to the fellow responsible for Streamsong, he told me that he knew, in order to be successful, that he had to create two world class golf courses.

Without them, in a remote or less than ideal location, you can't make it, no matter how deep your pockets are.

Hence, a high quality product is another necessity.

[Mark Chaplin]

"We'd probably agree that the courses found at Bandon, Kohler and Streamsong are exceptional, but, would they have endured without subsidies ?"

Didn't Streamsong open a few months ago? Surely it's still in the honeymoon phase and needs a tough season or two before you can judge it's commercial success?

[Jud_T]

I agree that a top quality course is an absolutely essential starting point.  I had the chance to invest in a destination club a few years back that shall remain nameless.  The GCA was one of the things that turned me off to the idea.  If you want people to get on a plane or drive long distances several times a year, you better have all your ducks in a row or you are doomed from the outset.

[Bruce Katona]

Success= the very deep pockets and newtork of the founding member; who will be writing checks and persuading his/her friends to join the new club.

After that, the ability to get to and from the place is key.  Private planes help with access.

The course is next.....the folks paying the bills need to feel good about visiting and playing the place when they visit.  Plainfield CC or Oakmont (just two examples) are great courses, but not what you're looking for in a destination course as is Sand Hills.

Just my $0.02.

BK

[Tommy Williamsen]

Do having local members help? I know of clubs that have a cap on locals so it doesn't get crowded for national members but it would seem that locals pay a large portion of the bills.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do having local members help? I know of clubs that have a cap on locals so it doesn't get crowded for national members but it would seem that locals pay a large portion of the bills.

Tommy,

Doubtful that Streamsong or Sand Hills would have a significant cadre of local members due to the remote nature of the sites.

And, could the locals afford the fare ?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Do having local members help? I know of clubs that have a cap on locals so it doesn't get crowded for national members but it would seem that locals pay a large portion of the bills.

Tommy,

Doubtful that Streamsong or Sand Hills would have a significant cadre of local members due to the remote nature of the sites.

And, could the locals afford the fare ?

Pat, the first time I went to Sand Hills was the year after it opened with a friend who was a member.  I seem to recall that National Members paid a paltry $25000 initiation fee. Local members paid about $6000.  I was told that Dick Youngscap wanted good relationships with the locals. That is my recollection. It could be flawed and the numbers may not be exactly right but they are close.
Secession and Ballyhack both have caps on local members.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Hi Brett,

Expound on this if you would:

in addition to the quality of the course, I would go back to SH & BN just for the experience of being there, the same doesn't apply to Bandon - I'd go back - but for the golf courses only.

So I would like to add "the experience" to the list of reasons why some are more successful than others.

I happen to agree with you and feel this could mean different things to different people.

Hi Jason, my apologies, but I've been away.(Barnbougle)

I am not sure if you are looking for my definition of "experience" or my thoughts on the difference in experience between SH&BN compared to Bandon?
On the later, I wasn't made to feel special. I was one of god knows how many golfers there, felt like a big factory, (I felt the same at Pebble Co.) ..but loved the golf, lucky I was there with 3 great mates. So, the success of a private also could depend on not being like a public access course/club!

My definition of experience, and this relates to Tommy's thread title is:
"planes, trains and automobiles" to get there. So excited. An adventure just finding the entrance, then the suspension builds down the long winding entrance road. The meet and greet is personal, and high quality, it feels as though they have thought of everything, nothing is an issue, and seemed to be able to assess our "vibe" and treated us accordingly, which is basically just great customer service. Food fantastic, drinks fantastic, service great.  We were so impressed with the "local flavour" of the staff, all the great golf course experiences I have had have managed to capture that local sensibilities and employ the right people to give you a real sense of place. It was personal, felt like home, and felt customised to each guest.

Truly memorable.

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Brett,

Expound on this if you would:

in addition to the quality of the course, I would go back to SH & BN just for the experience of being there, the same doesn't apply to Bandon - I'd go back - but for the golf courses only.

So I would like to add "the experience" to the list of reasons why some are more successful than others.

I happen to agree with you and feel this could mean different things to different people.

Hi Jason, my apologies, but I've been away.(Barnbougle)

I am not sure if you are looking for my definition of "experience" or my thoughts on the difference in experience between SH&BN compared to Bandon?
On the later, I wasn't made to feel special. I was one of god knows how many golfers there, felt like a big factory, (I felt the same at Pebble Co.) ..but loved the golf, lucky I was there with 3 great mates.

My definition of experience, and this relates to Tommy's thread title is:
"planes, trains and automobiles" to get there. So excited. An adventure just finding the entrance, then the suspension builds down the long winding entrance road. The meet and greet is personal, and high quality, it feels as though they have thought of everything, nothing is an issue, and seemed to be able to assess our "vibe" and treated us appropriately, which is basically just great customer service. Food fantastic, drinks fantastic, service great.  We were so impressed with the "local flavour" of the staff, all the great golf course experiences I have had have managed to capture that local sensibilities and employ the right people to give you a real sense of place. It was personal, felt like home, and felt customised to each guest.

Truly memorable.

But did you join?

[Mac Plumart]

We are talking private courses, right?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Jim,
Tough to justify joining (that's assuming I could!) SH or BN living in Australia,  so although an impossibility, if it were, I would not hesitate.

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