[Tommy Williamsen]

We all know the success story that is Sand Hills.  There are other destination clubs that are successful either as second home clubs or without housing. Some have not.  I am thinking of clubs without housing, clubs that are primarily destination clubs: Dismal River, Secession, Ballyneal, Pete Dye GC, Pikewodd National, Ballyhack, and Sutton Bay to name a few. 
The quality of the course makes a difference to be sure but there are quality courses that have had financial difficulties.
Without speaking of specific clubs, I do not want to begin a thread that speculates about private club matters, What are the components that make one club more successful than another.

[RJ_Daley]

I think a playable but uniquely challenging design.  The uniqueness has to come from the terrain and surrounding region.  Something has to be unlike the mostly urban environments that the members live within, and make their livings.  It has to be 'something else'.  Of course that means the architect has to present a credible golf facility that blend into the surrounds, and feels natural to that area.  It can't be rinky-dink golf.  But, it needs to be of widely variable length set up, and greens and hazards that are fun, not torture. 

Finally, but maybe most important, it needs to have a visionary founder, or general manager.  Sand Hills has that in spades with D.Y and Clint.  Dismal has that in Chris.  Bandon Resorts has it with Kaiser the owner, and it seems always a great general manager from their golf management company (Troon?)   Sutton has it with Mark, Swampy's design sensibiliites, and their passion to not let a bad 'break' (pun intended) defeat them.  Now, Cabot has that with the awesome and passionate Ben, Ran's input, a great design build team and Kaiser's investment.  I think if you take out the quality and commitment of the management and replace it with a more philistine and less passionate about golf and less socially fluent host-owner-manager, and no matter if the facility-course is great, the clientele 'feel it', and the operation starts to wane.  I won't say which of the facilities "may" be on the wane, but they are at the mercy of word of mouth to some extent.  You have to make each visitor/member feel like they are special.  Some management folks know how to do that, and some, not so much...

[Tom_Doak]

1.  LOCATION is very important, even for remote clubs.  How the members can get there will determine how often they go, which will determine how much in demand the memberships are.  Just having an airstrip handy is not enough.

2.  SEASONALITY is also important.  If you are building all your facilities for a four-month golf window, it's hard to make those numbers work no matter how good the course ... and it's harder to sell the memberships because potential members are all doing the same math in their own heads.  As good as Sand Hills [and its neighbors] are, they can never be a financial home run because of the 4 1/2 month golf season.

3.  The OWNER is key.  I think the "visionary" part is overrated here, but what can never be overrated is trustworthiness and financial soundness.  Nobody is going to pony up $50,000 for a membership in this day and age unless they are 100% sure the club will stay open for years to come.

Once you've got those three things answered to someone's satisfaction, it's a legitimate candidate for their initiation money, and they can start debating the merits of your course vs. another.

[cary lichtenstein]

The membership that the owner attracts. Members attract members

[SL_Solow]

Bandon has been managed by Kemper Sports since its inception.

[Jud_T]

Bandon has been managed by Kemper Sports since its inception.

How successful would Bandon have been if it were private?

[BCrosby]

There are a number of objective factors that make destination courses work. TD and others outline the main ones. Those are necessary conditions for a successful project.

Missing, I think, is the sufficient condition, which is that the course must generate a certain buzz. Ideally just before and after it opens. Too early or too late and the buzz doesn't gain traction.

Streamsong did the buzz thing well, I thought.

Bob

[Brett_Morrissy]

Bob, would you put the Buzz below the ones mentioned by TD above and RJD? Surely a great quality course in all aspects, will shine thru eventually without the GCA buzz?

Tommy put no time frame in the thread title.

Is it fair to assume that almost as much effort had to made to get to Cypress Point and Pine Valley when they opened compared to getting to the BN, SH, DR and Bandon today?

Tomorrow morning I go to Barnbougle, although it is not private, it is certainly destination for the mainland Australian market, I can be teed off within 90-120 mins of leaving my front door. 90 years ago, it may have taken me 2 days to get there.  Today there are still 2 other routes to get there, large commercial flights - assuming flights are on time (!): at least 5hrs and overnight ship/ferry with own car: 15-17 hrs.

From this I take location or access to the location as very important to the success. For anyone to go to all that effort (not to mention cost) it has to be awesome when you get there...if you want golfers to return.

in addition to the quality of the course, I would go back to SH & BN just for the experience of being there, the same doesn't apply to Bandon - I'd go back - but for the golf courses only.

So I would like to add "the experience" to the list of reasons why some are more successful than others.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think there are two other considerations.
1. The club needs to know what it is.  Sand Hills was definitely built for out of staters.  There are local members but the course was not built for them.  The owner(s) need to be clear.  Is the course for locals with some national members or is it a national club with a smattering of locals? Both Secession and Ballyhack have put a cap on local membership.
Some clubs seem to have an identity crisis.

2. I have memberships in two national clubs.  I bring guests but none of them join.  They are satisfied to come with me a couple times of the year.  They love the experience, the cottages, the food, the staff, and the course.  They just don't join.

[BCrosby]

Brett -

Buzz begins with architectural quality. But there can be architectural quality without the buzz. And by buzz, I don't mean that some of us wing-nuts here at GCA get fired up. I mean that the big golf magazines and GC take note and generate talk. Streamsong was a model for how that can be done.

I went to a party tonight and someone who had not been to Streamsong referred to it as the Florida Bandon Dunes. He plans to travel to play it soon. That's buzz at work.

Bob

[Sam Morrow]

A movie once said, "If you build it they will come." That is kinda true, if you build it right they will come, if you're good people will find you and keep coming back.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Bandon has been managed by Kemper Sports since its inception.

How successful would Bandon have been if it were private?

It would have never been built and if it was built it wouldn't be what it is today, maybe two courses

[Kris Shreiner]

Private destination facilities are always going to have a difficult task sustaining themselves. There have been several major success elements touted as to what separates in general, destination facilities that do well from those that struggle. Clear, sustained commitment to quality presentation, by both the owner AND the management, is crucial.

One of the biggest factors not yet mentioned is the caddie dynamic's postive influence if it is run on a quality level. Secession, on the private side, has nailed that aspect of its presentation from the outset, and is a stellar example of a private facility that has done a superb job. Another caddie club stalwart, Old Memorial in Tampa, while having a strong locals component to its membership, has a solid snowbird contingent that is greatly responsible for their financial health.

The most successful destination golf facilities built in the last 20 years, Bandon Dunes and Kingsbarns, both had caddie programs from the start. Bandon's program was mediocre at the outset, but they weathered the inconsistent, early years and have evolved into a caddie program of quality(though the white suits need to go!).

Kingsbarns benefited from poaching some disgruntled St. Andrew's caddies looking for less oppressive conditions that found greener pastures at KB. The timely opening there, during the Open Championship held at St. Andrew's that year, coupled with Tigermania in full flower, certainly didn't hurt, but make no mistake, those solid caddies enabled the facility to sustain its momentum beyond that as an excellent golf experience.

Of some recent destination golf entries, Dormie Club continues to limp along; without their excellent caddies they'd be dead by now. Streamsong will be interesting to watch; the courses have the goods, the caddie staff, while mostly imported, seems sound, but will it have and retain the "soul" and aura of the game's special places?

I've not played Barnbougle, or places like it yet, so until I do, it will be difficult to judge what that experience will rate for me. I do know that every really special golf destination I've ever come away from quite impressed with had the caddie dynamic on offer in some form. Quality golfing ground and caddie golf just seem to go together in many parts of the world. While I've played some fine courses that never had caddies as part of the equation, the experience at them just doesn't hit the high notes to the level of caddie courses.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jason Topp]

I have to be one of the prime potential customers for these types of places.  I love to travel.  I much prefer private golf over public options , I love "pure golf" clubs and I probably could afford it.  Nonetheless, every time I have thought about such an option, the decision not to pursue it has been an easy decision. 

For pure golf travel there countless great options out there and I would hate to tie money up in one destination. 

I could only see such an option make sense if I could recoup a portion of my costs by using it with business customers.  I do not own my own business and I am not directly involved in sales so the business benefit would be negligible.

I think you need a destination that members can use to make money to be successful.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about the "Fractional Ownership" (glorified time share) concept  used at Roaring Fork Club ( Nicklaus golf plus fishing plus proximity to skiing  in Aspen, CO?

Is this a feasible alternative?

www.roaringforkclub.com

[Jason Hines]

Hi Brett,

Expound on this if you would:

in addition to the quality of the course, I would go back to SH & BN just for the experience of being there, the same doesn't apply to Bandon - I'd go back - but for the golf courses only.

So I would like to add "the experience" to the list of reasons why some are more successful than others.

I happen to agree with you and feel this could mean different things to different people.

[Chris Johnston]

Almost every destination club had early struggles, even including Sand Hills.  The first traunch of members were very passionate and bought in before the accolades.  SH knows what they are and they deliver it very well.

All of these clubs take good and long-term committed people - owner, staff and members alike.  Most that struggled did so due to niche and cost.

The early secret to Sand Hills was is wasn't particularly expensive to join.  Many of the follow-on clubs tried to chase big dollars for memberships and that really didn't turn out very well at all.  Today, it is relatively affordable to join most of these clubs - a nice return to the SH model.

I can't speak for all of the clubs, but Dismal River adheres to a quality/value model.  It's pretty simple, we want to make it within reach of as many people as possible - people who want to come out a few times for a few days and have an exclusive experience with friends.  People are what makes a great club.  The experience is your product - it all you have.

As far as commitment, you have to live it and walk it everyday, even on the challenging days.  You have to listen and smile through setbacks. Across the golf industry, you miss a lot of birthdays and events so you need a strong, understanding family.  And, you need to take naps.

[Jeff Dawson]

This is a subject I could write volumes on.  Since the topic is about private destination clubs you have to remove Bandon from the discussion.  The primary key to success on the public / resort side is different than the private side.  One could argue that the golf course itself may be the most important aspect, but this is a discussion for another thread.

Tom Doak nailed the most important reason for determining success of a private facility.  It's the owner/founder.  The owner or ownership group must be of the highest standard and be able to capitalize the project for some time.  I know of very few successful private destination clubs in the US.  Many more fail than succeed.  While capitalization is important, either by a well healed owner or by reasonable land acquisition , the single most important factor each successful club has been the commitment of the owner and his steadfast integrity.  Sand Hills and Friar's Head come to mind as great examples on different financial spectrums that succeeded in different parts of the US.  Both have great golf but I assure you it is the integrity of the club that made them successful and for that you must thank the visionary.  Modern destinations that have succeeded are no different than older one's.  Think Pine Valley and National Golf Links.  They were destination clubs founded by great visionaries.

Failures of the modern era can be linked to the incompetency or lack of integrity of the ownership group.  As I sit here today I can only think of a handful of successful destination clubs.  I can name dozens of failures.  Many of the features of those clubs also exist in the failed examples.  The one piece that is missing almost always has something to do with the owner.  A recent new entry in this market should have succeeded, as everything on paper looked like it would work, great property, world class golf, links to the history of the game, etc.  In fact it may well have had most everything on the list one could think of yet it failed before it even opened and its failure can be placed right in the lap of the owner.

Private golf succeeds when it provides its members an experience they cannot find elsewhere.  It is the very reason why people join more than one club.  While the golf at Pine Valley, Friar's Head and Seminole may all be world class, I assure you the experiences of the clubs are very different.  All wonderful in their own way.

You can only fake a great experience for so long.  Eventually the club will only be ably to succeed on the foundation on which it was built.   

[Mac Plumart]

Business model

And execution of that model.

[Mark Chaplin]

It's difficult to see the model working well now, too many decent people lost a lot of money at Loch Lomond, Ballyneal and St Andrews Beach to name 3 clubs across the world.

I'll be interested to see how the new St Andrews Beach club does and it's not exactly a distant "destination".

[Daryl David]

This is a subject I could write volumes on.  Since the topic is about private destination clubs you have to remove Bandon from the discussion.  The primary key to success on the public / resort side is different than the private side.  One could argue that the golf course itself may be the most important aspect, but this is a discussion for another thread.

Tom Doak nailed the most important reason for determining success of a private facility.  It's the owner/founder.  The owner or ownership group must be of the highest standard and be able to capitalize the project for some time.  I know of very few successful private destination clubs in the US.  Many more fail than succeed.  While capitalization is important, either by a well healed owner or by reasonable land acquisition , the single most important factor each successful club has been the commitment of the owner and his steadfast integrity.  Sand Hills and Friar's Head come to mind as great examples on different financial spectrums that succeeded in different parts of the US.  Both have great golf but I assure you it is the integrity of the club that made them successful and for that you must thank the visionary.  Modern destinations that have succeeded are no different than older one's.  Think Pine Valley and National Golf Links.  They were destination clubs founded by great visionaries.

Failures of the modern era can be linked to the incompetency or lack of integrity of the ownership group.  As I sit here today I can only think of a handful of successful destination clubs.  I can name dozens of failures.  Many of the features of those clubs also exist in the failed examples.  The one piece that is missing almost always has something to do with the owner.  A recent new entry in this market should have succeeded, as everything on paper looked like it would work, great property, world class golf, links to the history of the game, etc.  In fact it may well have had most everything on the list one could think of yet it failed before it even opened and its failure can be placed right in the lap of the owner.

Private golf succeeds when it provides its members an experience they cannot find elsewhere.  It is the very reason why people join more than one club.  While the golf at Pine Valley, Friar's Head and Seminole may all be world class, I assure you the experiences of the clubs are very different.  All wonderful in their own way.

You can only fake a great experience for so long.  Eventually the club will only be ably to succeed on the foundation on which it was built.   

Absolutely right, Jeff. Well said.

[Greg Tallman]

Bandon has been managed by Kemper Sports since its inception.

How successful would Bandon have been if it were private?

I think the thing that Bandon has is the fact that it has a priavte feel to it based on the clientele it attracts. By and large it is overrun with golf nuts, if not "purists",  and thus one feels they are "among friends" whilst on site.

Bottom Line - Doesn't have to go private, has that feel to it while attracting people from different walks of life with a common passion. Kind of an expanded version of Crystal Downs (or at least how it used to be).  

[Mac Plumart]

Greg...

I, respectfully, disagree.

Bandon, as great as it is, felt nothing like a private club to me. It is definitely a resort.  

[David Lott]

Ownership, management and financial stability, which are three peas in the same pod. Chechessee Creek here in the South Carolina low country, which has blossomed under new owner David Proctor.

[Dan Byrnes]

Another factor is that as more destination clubs tried to make their way in to the world you begin to dilute the potential membership pool.  So while Sand Hills is noted as a sucess, trying to duplicate that will be tougher, trying to be the third one even tougher.  Clubs in diffrent locations and different vibes are more likey to make it than copying a existing club.

When people talk about some of these top destination clubs like Sand Hills; do their memberships overlap?

I have been pondering joining some type of National or destination club for a couple years now but haven't really begun to know where to begin my search as I don't have any friends who have joined one.  Trying to decide is it about a convienient flight or more an experience?

Dan

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