What Does Pacific Dunes Lack?

[CHrisB]

I played Pacific Dunes last week, opting for 36 holes in one day. With the wind strengthening wind throughout the day, the course played quite differently from morning to afternoon. The wind was the prevailing summer wind, with #4 downwind and #13 into the wind. With the wind, we just tried to hang on through the 13th, then pick up as many as we could on the last 5 holes. We had great weather, the conditions were excellent, and it was nice to be able to play true links golf in the U.S.--it forced us to come up with shots normally reserved for the GBI seaside courses!

Not having anything to add to the heaps of praise lavished on the course (I was blown away really), I'll come from the other direction and ask: What does Pacific Dunes lack? What keeps this course from being considered as one of the very few best courses in the world?

History? Tradition? "Imbalanced" routing? Not difficult enough (it certainly was when the wind blew!)? Not enough long par 4's? I'm grasping here a little.

Yes, it is generally regarded as a top 30 world course, and top 15 or 20 in the U.S., but what does Pacific Dunes lack that keeps it from being closer to the top of those lists?

[Dan Grossman]

This is an interesting question...

Look at the courses ahead of it:Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills, Pinehurst (No. 2), Sand Hills, Merion (East), Oakmont, Seminole, Winged Foot (West), San Francisco, Prairie Dunes, National GL of America, Crystal Downs, Oakland Hills (South).

I think it is interesting to note that only 2 of the courses were built after the Great Depression, Sand Hills, Prairie Dunes.  Meaning that you have the greatest work of the greatest golden age architects ahead of Pacific Dunes.  Of this list, I am only inclined to say that PD should not be behind Oakland Hills, but that is just personal opinion.  In addition, Doak's best work is ahead of the best work by Dye, Raynor, Thomas', Nicklaus, all the Jones'. Tom Fazio, Wieskopf/ Morrish...

That is pretty amazing.  Based on that, you could probably argue that PD might be ranked too high, not low.

As far as the course is concerned, I think it is lacking interesting par 5s.  With the exception of #18, I found the other par 5s to be very similar and somewhat uninteresting compared to the rest of the course.  Flat ground with little to challenge the tee ball and second shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris B,

You could ask that question about almost any golf course.

I think the "WIND" is a double edged sword for both Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.  An asset on one hand and a liability on the other.

I think the strong winds will always prevent the greens from being maintained as "FAST".

With strong winds and fast greens at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, balls wouldn't stay on the greens and the golf experience would suffer.  Fast greens seem to be looked upon favorably by golfers and raters, but there is a delicate balance that must be maintained when a golf course is swept by high velocity, prevailing winds.

When I played there in May, I would have prefered faster greens, but understood the dilema.

While the collection of holes at both courses is terrific, perhaps the green to tee walks are a detriment.

I don't know why we can't accept the golf courses as they are.   Why is there a need to promote or elevate these golf courses in the ratings race ?

[Paul_Turner]

Complete cross wind.  The holes play "generally" down or into the prevailing wind.  Contrast this with Rye, which only has a single hole (11th) that tends to play either into or against the wind.

Still this certainly isn't enough to keep the course from being rated amongst the best in the world:  it certainly deserves to be!

The green speed is irrelevant, you could discount all the UK links from any Top lists if this was important.

[DMoriarty]

20-70 years.  

[Matt_Ward]

Chris B:

I'll ask question to your question -- for a course (doesn't have to be just Pacific Dunes of which I'm a big fan) in order to move up in any considerable way given the standing it occupies now -- one of the main names needs to be bumped down. You know -- simple addition by subtraction.

Tell me which one(s) go down?

As an FYI -- I believe both Sand Hills and The Golf Club (OH) are at least two modern courses ahead of Pac Dunes IMHO.

[CHrisB]

I don't know why we can't accept the golf courses as they are.   Why is there a need to promote or elevate these golf courses in the ratings race ?

Patrick,

Who is the "we" that you are referring to?  And who is it that has the need to promote or elevate Pacific Dunes in the ratings race?

Regarding greens speed, we were lucky on this trip.  The greens were about as fast as they could possibly play in the wind (20-30 mph) that we had; the balls were close to oscillating but stayed put; challenging and enjoyable putting.

[Michael Dugger]

The ninth doesn't return to the clubhouse.

The girl at the halfway house near #4 wouldn't come home with me back to my yurt to drink beer after my round.

That's about all I can find wrong with it.  

[CHrisB]

I'll ask question to your question -- for a course (doesn't have to be just Pacific Dunes of which I'm a big fan) in order to move up in any considerable way given the standing it occupies now -- one of the main names needs to be bumped down. You know -- simple addition by subtraction.

Tell me which one(s) go down?

Matt,

I am not advocating that Pacific Dunes be moved up in the rankings at all; I have played some but not enough of the courses above it to be able to try to compare them all.

I'm just trying to learn here, and all I am asking is: Given its position, what is it missing? And I have no problem with the idea that it is missing a few things; I'm just curious at what eveyone here thinks they are.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris B:

David M mentioned something that few people usually consider -- time. Yes, many courses open to great fanfare -- the question is more about staying power. Does the course(s) still have a buzz 10 years from when it opened? 25 years from now?

I believe the aspect of wind and how it blows through the property is a good point. When you play Bandon and Pac the wind follows either a south-north direction in the winter months and the reverse during summer. Cross winds would certainly add to the challenge but if I had to offer a few weak holes I would say the par-5 12th is just pedestrian and the short par-3 14th and the following par-5 15th are also a bit lite IMHO.

Anytime courses get to the top 25-30 courses in the USA the totality of the 18 holes needs to be as close to bullet proof as can be because the competition is that keen IMHO. I don't have any doubt that Pac is one of my personal top 50 but it's overall standing will come with the passage of some time -- not much mind you -- but still some time.

[DMoriarty]

The comments regarding the wind are surprising to me.  I only played the course three days, but I recall quite a bit of side-wind on the course.  Maybe not perpendicular wind but certainly quartering wind.  

Even if the wind always blew either north to south or south to north (and I really doubt this is the case), I dont think the course plays as directly north to south as some recall.  Sure it plays generally north to south, but many of the holes (and/or doglegs) often play off this axis.  With wind as strong as the course gets, even a small angle off axis can totally change the shot.  In fact, I felt that there were different wind considerations from one side of a few of the wide fairways to the other.

Plus, I would assume that when the wind gets down in the dunes and along the cliff, there are pockets where the general direction will be distorted quite a lot.  

[Paul_Turner]

David

Here's the routing plan:



Obviously there are changes in hole direction (quatering), but the course is generally North-South and no complete cross winds (perpendicular to the cliff).  In my few rounds, the wind has been pretty set at PD and it did feel that most holes play into or down wind; I can't remember playing for a big cross wind.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

All the course needs is time and good fotune

[Chris Perry]

To further add to Dan's list, most of those courses are private, and in many cases, "uber" private.

I've always noticed this stigma of exclusivity meaning it must make the course "better" for some reason.

[Doug Wright]

ChrisB,

Excellent question. I qualify my remarks by saying I've only played 4 rounds on the course with south winter winds and therefore I don't think I have enough rounds on the course to answer this.

Anyway, based on my experience I'd agree with the comments about the par 5s. Though they are solid, I don't think they stack up to the other holes on the course. The 18th is terrific, but the 3rd, and 12th seemed less so, and pretty similar. I like the 15th a lot--the green and cross bunker in the second shot LZ (into the wind) are very good. Maybe it's just impossible to make compelling par 5s in the modern era, unless you have land like Sand Hills.

I love this golf course, though. More fun, variety and challenge than nearly anyplace I've played this side of the pond.

All The Best,

[Ran Morrissett]

Firstly, I think GOLF Magazine's world #26 ranking is a shade low and PacDunes should be closer to the top, if anything.

Thus, to me the question is whether PacDunes is a "9" or "10" on the Doak scale and I opt for the former because:

1) unlike Pebble, it lacks a few great - or tough - three shotters, especially when the wind is down and;

2) unlike Pebble, it lacks a couple of more tough two shotters  when the wind is down (i.e. PacDunes has three holes (I think) in the 425-480 range and as this is such a great half-par range with or without wind, I wish the property had yielded more).

Given that (I assume) the question is about how PacDunes stacks up with the world's absolute best, compare it to Cypress Point: the one shotters at CP are definitely better, as are the three shotters, and the two shotters are very, very close. Nonetheless, a clear edge must be given to CP, in part because I think its property is more diverse/varied and lacks the flat transition areas that Doak brilliantly chewed up in as few of holes as possible at PacDunes (the 3rd, 12th, and 15th).

However, like Friar's Head, PacDunes has a great owner and Green Keeper, and with time and with such decision makers, I'm confident it will rise into the world top 20   as the Riviera's of the world needlessly fall on their own swords  

Cheers,

[DMoriarty]

Paul,

I think are pretty much in agreement;  some quartering winds and not a lot of true cross winds, although I have a recollection of getting something close to straight cross winds on the last day I played (Sunday the weekend we were there.)

As for whether this condition is common, we have to hope a few real regulars chime in, I think.  I certainly havent played there enough to be an adequate judge of the wind direction.  

[ForkaB]

A few thoughts

1.  I fully agree with the "time will tell" comments.  PD is a very new course, which will evolve, and also (hopefully) develop some of the "patina" of age which graces courses with more of a history.  We shall see.

2.  The routing that Paul T posted is incorrect in that it shows an earlier plan which does not reflect the several hundred yard walk from the 11th green to the 12th tee.  This long trek is a weakness to the course, IMO.

3.  Ran is right about the flat areas occupied by 3, 12 and 15.  However, I think it is instructive to compare what was done there to what C&C did on the (more extensive) flat areas at Friars Head.  I think that the C&C had worse land to work with but came up with a better solution (and better execution of that solution).  Of course, there too, only time will tell.

4.  As others have implied this numerical fixation (#26, etc.) is just picking nits.  PD is an excellent course that may, over time, prove to be "great."  We should be glad it exists.

[Paul_Turner]

Rich

The routing is right, except that the 12th tee shown (next to the 5th) doesn't exist, as far as I can remember.  The other tees shown on the 12th, are the ones used.  8th is more of a dogleg too.

[TEPaul]

Very interesting thread--lots of diverse and thoughtful opinion.

The question of this thread is "What does Pacific Dunes lack?" Well, it lacks tree-lined fairways, it lacks lots of water hazards all over the place--I don't think it has a waterfall that I noticed, so it lacks that, etc, etc. I don't think the question should be framed so much in what it lacks but what could be done to it that might make it even better than it already is?

And I refuse to get going again on this ranking bullshit! Just because there happens to be about 30 really great courses around the world that may be ranked ahead of Pacific Dunes should never mean that Pacific Dunes actually lacks something given what it is and should be. When I asked Bill Coore out there what he thought about Pacific Dunes he said it was really good--really really good. But when I asked him over and over again why exactly he was saying that he just kept repeating; "Because it's so different--it's so different!"

Think about that and try to focus on that alone. Why does it always have to be assumed that if a course isn't in some higher ranking position that it might be or must be LACKING SOMETHING?

I don't really think an architect such as Bill Coore is all that concerned or interested in ranking either but he is extremely interested in getting as good as one can get architecturally and otherwise out of a project and site. The site of Pacific Dunes has so much to offer and Doak, it seems to me sort of took just about full advantage of what he was given there.

I'll get back to exactly what he was given there later because I think it just might impact a good deal on the very interesting remark Paul Turner made about virtual lack of crosswind play there due to the routing directions and the sort of interesting seasonal prevailing wind direction of that area.

But back to Coore's feeling about 'just so different'. If one seriously considers that factor and aspect alone, Pacific Dunes might be considered in the top few in America just because of that very aspect--eg, DIFFERENCE.

A good deal of the overall interest in golf can be found in the vast differences (certainly around the world) in its architecture and presentation of golf courses for varied golf. Pacific Dunes is so very different than almost everything else in America that alone puts it way up there in quality, in my opinon, again if looked at in the context of "difference" and what that difference means.

It really is sort of a shot of Europe in America almost as much as can be found here--and that to me is a tremendous asset of Pacific Dunes. And the kicker in that aspect is it's in no way whatsoever some "phony" imitation of some of the best in Europe like some of these things being produced in this country that are called "linksland" this and "linksland" that. Pacific Dunes is the real deal--every single little aspect and detail of it looks, smells and plays like the real item!! That horrible looking course somewhere in the Nevada or Arizona desert that David Feherty was paid a lot of money to say reminds him of being home in Ireland is just what I'm talking about! That course looks and probably plays as much like Feherty's home in Ireland as NYC looks like the Mojave desert!

The question should be, in my mind, what could be done to Pacific Dunes to make it even better than it already is?

Later.

[Norbert P]

  What does Pacific Dunes lack?  . . . .  ME !

Ran, you bring up a good perspective of challenge in your comparison with Pebble Beach.  Is this something that could be tested by a pro tournament?  Perhaps an arrangement like "Battle at Bighorn" or "Battle at the Bridges".  Something not really requiring the whole brigade of PGA players, just something to get the world's top 4 or 8 players to test her in a competitive format.  

  I would love to see the same from Sand Hills.  

  I would definitely buy those video tapes/DVD's.


  I've read in this topic the gentle berating, by highly learned men, that flatness is a detriment to its perfection.  Why is this so?  There were no scrapers used so the land is for the most part, undisturbed.  Why is this minimalism scorned?  I doubt the building of mounds in these fairways would add to its character.  In fact, I think it would reduce its presentation of truths.

  That said, there is something about the fairway bunkers on 15 that glare at me.  They are effective and well placed, making golfers decide how to tack or attack but I can't explain their style except that they look and come at you like the waves of the Pacific that are left behind.  It's quite Muirheadian.  With the effects of time, they may become my favorite.
  I can hardly wait for the winter.





 

[cary lichtenstein]

what does Catherine Zeta Jones lack?

How would you compare her to Cameron Diaz.

Do either of them compare to Marilyn Monroe?

This is what some of this sounds like.

All are great in their own right, and can't be compared.

[JohnV]

The only thing that Pacific Dunes (and Bandon Dunes) lacks is an annual pass that would have allowed me to play it for a reasonable rate all year round so that I could move there.

If cross winds are an issue to you, I can say that Bandon has much more of them than Pacific does.  And Pacific certainly has as at least as many holes with cross winds as TOC does or a number of other out and back great links courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Paul, thank you for your answer, which would have been mine.  Ballybunion (Old) doesn't have enough doglegs to the right, but you've gotta be a bean-counter to notice ... and great golf courses are not about counting beans, are they?

Pat M. is also right that some people think the greens are too slow, although I've also seen them on the edge of too fast ... but I'm sure the greens are faster day-to-day than Dornoch or Muirfield or County Down, so I doubt that's much of an issue.

I've always been really happy with the par fives at Pacific.  I'm surprised that #18 has the most support here ... most of my friends have picked either the third as their favorite, while Jim Urbina is partial to the fifteenth.  As for the twelfth, I was deliberately cautious about putting too many hazards there since it's the longest hole on the course, and I thought it would be silly to overdo any artificial work between #11 and #13.  So sue me!

The fifth and ninth at National aren't stunning par-fives either ... to pick an example from one of the few courses which I would certainly rate above Pacific Dunes.  I hope Rees Jones doesn't decide to modify them to "help out" Mr. Macdonald ... and I certainly don't have any plans in the works to "improve" Pacific Dunes.  

I haven't seen the new rankings for GOLF Magazine yet, but I'd bet even money it will go up rather than down as more people get to play it.

[David_Tepper]

Isn't Pacific Dunes scheduled to host the USGA Mid-Amateur in a few years? If so, I imagine they will use Bandon Dunes as well in the 36-hole qualifier.
It will be interesting to see how hosting this event will impact the perception of the courses. It will certainly enhance the "tradition" element to have the USGA bluecoats spend a week there.