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Kevin Lynch

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Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« on: April 20, 2013, 12:52:56 PM »
I am coming to Washington the first week of May while my wife is attending an ABA conference.  I reviewed a past Washington DC Public Golf thread and had a few follow-ups.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48010.0.html

Glenn Dale (Cobb) looks like a definite, and may do a 36 hole day by adding in U of Maryland for a double dose of Cobb. 

Rock Creek - I'm not a conditioning fanatic and Andy Hughes indicated it would take a special soul to appreciate it.  I may give it a shot, but was curious if I'd be in for a 5-6 hour round given its proximity to downtown.  I'd probably be playing Thursday or Friday, if that matters.

CCFADs - It looked like 1757, Westfields, Worthington, Whiskey Creek, Lake Presidential and Laurel Hill all fit this characterization.  From the respective websites, its hard to separate the group in terms of character.  A little bit of a backhanded compliment was on the 1757 website when it was noted "The most unusual aspect of 1757 has to be the practice area" (which I would hope isn't true). 

I'm not a fan of water-lined courses or ribbon fairways cut through woods.  I enjoy elevation changes, sloping fairways and quirk, so which of the above group may fit best?


Twin Lakes - Rich Brittingham mentioned that this is a good walking course, but no one else added any thoughts.  What are the thoughts about Twin Lakes?


Thanks!

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 01:12:34 PM »
Worthington, Whiskey Creek and Laurel Hill are all pretty good.  Worthington and Whiskey Creek are near each other. Also near them are Little Bennet, which is not great but fun and PB Dye, which I am not really fond of but is still a good option.  I am not really crazy about Glenn Dale.  Lake Presidential is always in good shape and is a favorite of many.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2013, 01:18:34 PM »
I would say based on your criteria to look into Whiskey Creek, PB Dye, and Little Bennett. Keep in mind driving distances and afternoon traffic -- best to tee off in the a.m. and budget a full day. Lorton meets your requirements of elevation change and sloping fairways but not really quirk (unless you count the old prison watch towers scattered around the perimeter of the property).
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 01:55:01 PM »
I would say based on your criteria to look into Whiskey Creek, PB Dye, and Little Bennett. Keep in mind driving distances and afternoon traffic -- best to tee off in the a.m. and budget a full day. Lorton meets your requirements of elevation change and sloping fairways but not really quirk (unless you count the old prison watch towers scattered around the perimeter of the property).

Thanks, Mark.  Am I correct that Lorton = Laurel Hill?

I guess I wouldn't consider my criteria to be "requirements," just the types of things I like that add some character and memorability (and fun is always a plus).  I really don't get hung up on perfect manicuring or speedy greens - I just want to avoid overly soft conditions.  When it comes to CCFADs, I find that some are just trying to "wow me" with pristine conditions, while the layout lacks any really character.  Sometimes I'd rather play an interesting muni than a pristine bore.


Thanks for the insight - I'll probably need multiple trips to see all the worthy courses.

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2013, 09:42:56 AM »
Hi Kevin -

It's too bad this trip didn't come before Beechtree closed -- despite the somewhat longer (~90 mins) drive out of the city, that's where I played most of my golf while living in DC.  In that area, you can still see Bulle Rock, which elicits the sort of conflicting views typical of such a Dye course.

Laurel Hill does = Lorton.  Lorton is the town in which the course is located.  It's a solid course on a nice piece of rolling land with buildings from a now-defunct prison speckled around a few holes, and definitely the one on your starter list I would choose based on your criteria.  Two others that I never saw but heard positive things about were Musket Ridge and Virginia National.

If you truly don't care about conditioning and want to mix in some interesting history lessons and/or "architectural squinting", you should definitely consider the three municipal courses.  East Potomac's blue course was a Travis design, of which you can still see vestiges, and Flynn supposedly had something to do with Rock Creek.  The third course, Langston, has an incredible past as one of the earlier desegregated courses in the country.

Craig Disher

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2013, 12:06:41 PM »
Not much of Cobb left at UMD. The course was redone by Bill Love a couple years ago; I haven't played it but it might be worth a look.

Do pay attention to distances and time of travel. The courses outside DC - Whiskey Creek, Worthington, Laurel Hill, and others - can be a travel nightmare if you are driving in rush hour(s).

I've had a love-hate relationship with Rock Creek for a long time and currently hate is in the ascendant. The changes made over the years (re-routing a few holes) and tree overgrowth are maddening. There is no other reason than laziness for the course to be in the shape that it's in. It is cheap and it is convenient but I'd spend my time elsewhere.

I would recommend looking into the publics just outside the city - Northwest Park and Needwood are great values and not too crowded during mid-week. I think Needwood is perhaps the most under-appreciated course in the DC area. If you like elevation changes, sloping fairways and quirk, avoid East Potomac Park. It's flat as a pancake and pretty boring except for the 9-holer at the west end of the park which has some interesting green sites.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 06:01:40 PM »
Thanks for all the insight, guys.  Is the traffic generally one-direction in the rush hours, or is it a nightmare both in & out of downtown?  For example, if I go to Lorton, do I need to worry about getting out there in the am or just make sure I head back early afternoon?

I've heard enough polarizing opinions on Rock Creek that I feel compelled to check it out, even if just to walk it for a few hours.  Perhaps I'll forgo 36 holes on one of the days (which was going to be tough anyway) and swing by there after a morning 18 elsewhere.
(BTW Andrew - I love the term "architectural squinting" - I may have to use that in the future.)

Laurel Hill sounds like one I should check out, and may make it more fun to watch any Publinx coverage later this year.


Finally, if anyone is able or interested in getting together for any of the rounds, send me a PM.  It looks like I'll be playing Th/Fri (2nd/3rd).



Dave Doxey

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 08:11:57 PM »
My recommendations, in order:  Worthington Manor, Laurel Hill, Whiskey Creek, Raspberry Falls.  Worthington & Whiskey are only a couple of miles apart, if you want 36 in a day.  Never played Lake Presidential, but have heard good things.  Renditions (east of DC) is also worthwhile.

1757 is not worth the cost.  Odd, cramped layout.  Practice area is astroturf only, unless you're have a season pass of some kind.

Andy Shulman

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 12:46:21 AM »
How unfortunate that I'm going to be out of town next Thurs and Fri.  Otherwise, I'd join you.  For quirk, I recommend Little Bennett.  While walking is allowed and it's not as tough of a trek as Ballyhack, it's at least in the ballpark.  Twin Lakes is indeed a good walking course and is a pretty solid track.  Of the others that you and others have mentioned, +1 on Dave's take.  Stay far, far away from 1757.  It's routing is an absolute mess.  The others are all very good and I also agree with Dave that Laurel Hill (Publinx) and Worthington Manor (US Open local qualifying course for many years) are your best bets.

Enjoy!

P.S. - Traffic can suck anytime and anywhere.  Allow some extra time if you decide to head out I-66 to either Westfields and Twin Lakes.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 03:25:07 PM »
How unfortunate that I'm going to be out of town next Thurs and Fri.  Otherwise, I'd join you.  For quirk, I recommend Little Bennett.  While walking is allowed and it's not as tough of a trek as Ballyhack, it's at least in the ballpark.  Twin Lakes is indeed a good walking course and is a pretty solid track.  Of the others that you and others have mentioned, +1 on Dave's take.  Stay far, far away from 1757.  It's routing is an absolute mess.  The others are all very good and I also agree with Dave that Laurel Hill (Publinx) and Worthington Manor (US Open local qualifying course for many years) are your best bets.

Enjoy!

P.S. - Traffic can suck anytime and anywhere.  Allow some extra time if you decide to head out I-66 to either Westfields and Twin Lakes.

Andy,

I think you may have sold me on Little Bennett in my Northwestern day.  You have a better idea what I like from our Ballyhack trips.  Chris DeNigris may be coming down to play 36 in the Frederick area, and suggested Whiskey & Worthington.  Perhaps we may sub-in Little Bennett for Whiskey.

I think your traffic tip may deter me from heading west this time.  1757 didn't look like my type of course and Westfields seemed a bit tree-lined from the site.  Twin Lakes may be on the agenda next time.

Andy Hughes threatened me if I go to Rock Creek without him, so I may need to pass on that one.  Looks like Laurel Hill & Glenn Dale will probably fill out the non-Frederick area day.

Is playing Glenn Dale in the AM and Laurel Hill in the PM even remotely possible with traffic?


Jerry Kluger

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 06:14:36 PM »
If you go to Frederick area you should go the extra distance and play Musket Ridge - I believe it is routed by Lester George with Joe Lee getting credit for the design.  I have never been a fan of Worthington Manor because the routing puts you in danger of being hit on quite a few holes; Whiskey is far better.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 07:58:10 PM »
How unfortunate that I'm going to be out of town next Thurs and Fri.  Otherwise, I'd join you.  For quirk, I recommend Little Bennett.  While walking is allowed and it's not as tough of a trek as Ballyhack, it's at least in the ballpark.  Twin Lakes is indeed a good walking course and is a pretty solid track.  Of the others that you and others have mentioned, +1 on Dave's take.  Stay far, far away from 1757.  It's routing is an absolute mess.  The others are all very good and I also agree with Dave that Laurel Hill (Publinx) and Worthington Manor (US Open local qualifying course for many years) are your best bets.

Enjoy!

P.S. - Traffic can suck anytime and anywhere.  Allow some extra time if you decide to head out I-66 to either Westfields and Twin Lakes.

Andy,

I think you may have sold me on Little Bennett in my Northwestern day.  You have a better idea what I like from our Ballyhack trips.  Chris DeNigris may be coming down to play 36 in the Frederick area, and suggested Whiskey & Worthington.  Perhaps we may sub-in Little Bennett for Whiskey.

I think your traffic tip may deter me from heading west this time.  1757 didn't look like my type of course and Westfields seemed a bit tree-lined from the site.  Twin Lakes may be on the agenda next time.

Andy Hughes threatened me if I go to Rock Creek without him, so I may need to pass on that one.  Looks like Laurel Hill & Glenn Dale will probably fill out the non-Frederick area day.

Is playing Glenn Dale in the AM and Laurel Hill in the PM even remotely possible with traffic?



Glenn Dale to Laurel Hill is a haul.  Play Laurel Hill twice.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2013, 08:17:44 PM »
This is so sad.  I left the DC area in 2004.  My picks back then would have been:

Augustine Golf Club in Stafford, VA
Bull Run Golf Club outside Leesburg, VA
Swan Point Yacht & Country Club south of Waldorf, MD
Raspberry Falls
Mattaponi Springs just South of Bowling Green, VA

I don't see any of these recommended above.  I am very familiar with the demise
of Augustine... can anyone else chime in on the others?


Paul Stephenson

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2013, 09:20:56 PM »
I managed Whisky Creek and PB Dye in one day with no problems.  Whisky Creek was my favourite of the two.

The following day I played Stonewall down at Lake Manassas which had some nice holes and a view of The Robert Trent Jones Golf Club.

CJ Carder

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2013, 11:32:37 AM »
This is so sad.  I left the DC area in 2004.  My picks back then would have been:

Augustine Golf Club in Stafford, VA
Bull Run Golf Club outside Leesburg, VA
Swan Point Yacht & Country Club south of Waldorf, MD
Raspberry Falls
Mattaponi Springs just South of Bowling Green, VA

I don't see any of these recommended above.  I am very familiar with the demise
of Augustine... can anyone else chime in on the others?



Roger,
Aside from Augustine, I think all are very much playable options still.  Probably an anomaly that they all got left out of the discussion.  But, to be fair, Swan Point and Mattaponi Springs are not exactly "close" to DC. 

Westfields seemed a bit tree-lined from the site.

Kevin,
I don't know what types of courses interest you, but I certainly wouldn't let "tree lined" deter you from playing Westfields.  Yes, there are trees on the course, but the course itself is an excellent golf course.  Very interesting land movement and some solid greens as well.  The series of holes to open the back 9 (10-14) are some of the best I've played in Northern Virginia.  I'm happy to post a few pictures if you're interested.

Sean_A

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2013, 08:23:37 PM »
This is so sad.  I left the DC area in 2004.  My picks back then would have been:

Augustine Golf Club in Stafford, VA
Bull Run Golf Club outside Leesburg, VA
Swan Point Yacht & Country Club south of Waldorf, MD
Raspberry Falls
Mattaponi Springs just South of Bowling Green, VA

I don't see any of these recommended above.  I am very familiar with the demise
of Augustine... can anyone else chime in on the others?



Roger,
Aside from Augustine, I think all are very much playable options still.  Probably an anomaly that they all got left out of the discussion.  But, to be fair, Swan Point and Mattaponi Springs are not exactly "close" to DC.  

Westfields seemed a bit tree-lined from the site.

Kevin,
I don't know what types of courses interest you, but I certainly wouldn't let "tree lined" deter you from playing Westfields.  Yes, there are trees on the course, but the course itself is an excellent golf course.  Very interesting land movement and some solid greens as well.  The series of holes to open the back 9 (10-14) are some of the best I've played in Northern Virginia.  I'm happy to post a few pictures if you're interested.

I don't think I would go so far as to sat Westfields is an excellent course, but its the best public I have seen around DC - certainly tops Rasberry Falls and Bull Run.  I don't recall trees being an issue there.  Many fairways are sort of raised with rough areas (which can get quite wet) feeding toward trees.  Though, I think Westfields is a bit expensive.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 05:53:29 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andy Shulman

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 11:33:46 PM »
Roger - As noted by CJ, most of the courses you suggested are a pretty long ride from the city.  Mattaponi Springs, in fact, is much closer to Richmond, VA than to DC.  Anyway, I just played Raspberry last week and it's alive and well.  Tried Augustine last year after many years away.  The greens were in excellent condition, but the fairways still had some growing in to do.  It, IMO, is the best layout in the area.  While the par-5 #11 is a bit of an odd hole, the other 17 include numerous outstanding and challenging holes.  What a shame that the course was not maintained for many years.

As for Kevin's upcoming visit, play well and give us a complete report once you get back to Buffalo.

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 07:42:31 AM »
  Is Enterprise still open?  Never here anyone talk about it. 

JNC Lyon

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2014, 10:40:40 PM »
I'm bumping this thread up since I got to play P.B. Dye this weekend. I played most of Little Bennett in November at Kevin Lynch's suggestion. While I definitely enjoyed Lil' B, I'd place PB Dye a notch or two above it.

I'm a little surprised to read folks on here have not enjoyed it in the past. I expected some penal Dye architecture, but what I got was a good routing over a good piece of routing with some really good golf. My two favorites were 6, a long par four with some artistic bunkering and a wicked green site, and 16, a classic dogleg replete with the Dye railroad ties. The roly poly greens were a hoot, and the par threes also stood out as a highlight.

9 and 18 were the only two question marks. The green sites in an amphitheater are cool, but they are both marred with a strange water feature (which included a non-functioning waterfall) that doesn't with the rest of the property.

Any additional thoughts from the DC contingent?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 08:50:39 AM »
I'll have to check out PB Dye next time I get back in the area.

I definitely enjoyed Little Bennett and preferred it over Worthington.  However, I will qualify my opinion on Worthington because I'm sure it was influenced by the 5+ hours of torture (had to walk off after 16 because I was already north of 5 hours and didn't want to miss dinner).  Considering we had Little Bennett to ourselves in the morning, the afternoon round experience at WM was jarring.

Andy Hughes

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2014, 04:43:57 PM »
JNC, I have always considered PB Dye well beyond Little Bennett. Just more creative, more interesting, with more fun holes.  I tried to tell KL to play PB Dye instead of LB but he always acts like he knows better than me ;)
Interesting you chose 16--that hole seems to polarize people because of the railroad ties. I've always been partial to 12, the reachable par 5 with the outrageous/hilarious green.
I couldn't agree more re 9 and 18--they always feel like someone was trying to show off and ended up with 2 holes that therefore feel different than the rest.

I'm bumping this thread up since I got to play P.B. Dye this weekend. I played most of Little Bennett in November at Kevin Lynch's suggestion. While I definitely enjoyed Lil' B, I'd place PB Dye a notch or two above it.

I'm a little surprised to read folks on here have not enjoyed it in the past. I expected some penal Dye architecture, but what I got was a good routing over a good piece of routing with some really good golf. My two favorites were 6, a long par four with some artistic bunkering and a wicked green site, and 16, a classic dogleg replete with the Dye railroad ties. The roly poly greens were a hoot, and the par threes also stood out as a highlight.

9 and 18 were the only two question marks. The green sites in an amphitheater are cool, but they are both marred with a strange water feature (which included a non-functioning waterfall) that doesn't with the rest of the property.

Any additional thoughts from the DC contingent?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Carl Nichols

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2014, 07:18:32 PM »
JNC:
I'm surprised I didn't comment on this thread, as I usually chime in on threads about DC golf.  As I've said before, Westfields is probably my favorite public that I've played, and I also like PB Dye more than some -- while it has a couple of headscratchers, it also has some very good holes. 

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2014, 08:01:34 PM »
I recently played Mattaponi Springs which is south of Fredericksburg and the best I have seen in what I would consider to be the DC area. Zoysia grass fairways were super easy to hit from and the greens were really smooth although not that interesting.  The only issue with conditioning were the bunkers as they were not well raked when I played.   Musket Ridge is also pretty good.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2014, 10:54:24 PM »
Andy,

I thought 12 was neat, and that green is indeed outrageous. I hit two good shots to get just left of the green, but I walked off with 6. Obviously, I was not in a good mindset about the hole after that, but looking back now I'm remembering how cool that green is. I was not a big fan of the other par fives, which I found to be awkward and generally devoid of options.

In general, I thought most of the greens were wacky in a good way. How about that front-to-back bunkerless green at 5? Or the sideways two-tiered green at the short 2nd? Or the rippling green at the long 6th? They were all a hoot.

It's interesting you say people are polarized by the railroad ties on 16. I've always been a sucker for Dye ties, so I thought 16 was great. But beyond that, the hole is just a classic dogleg. I ripped a 3-wood there, but I played conservatively out to the left. That left me with a blind second shot over the trees, and I had to shape a 9-iron into a back left pin. My friend Brian hit 3-iron off the tee, but he hugged the waste area on the right and was left with both a better angle and a shorter approach, even though my 3-wood was 20 yards past him. Bottom line: 16 is exactly the type of mid-length par four I love. The railroad ties were just a bonus.

One other thing I didn't mention in my first post: PB Dye is super-walkable considering the terrain. Clearly most of the play there is cart ball, but they let us walk and carry at 11 AM on a Sunday. I imagine that is a rarity for the area, and it was a nice surprise that started out the day on a good note.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:56:57 PM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Craig Disher

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Re: Washington DC Public Suggestions / Follow-up?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2014, 08:04:42 AM »
I recently played Mattaponi Springs which is south of Fredericksburg and the best I have seen in what I would consider to be the DC area. Zoysia grass fairways were super easy to hit from and the greens were really smooth although not that interesting.  The only issue with conditioning were the bunkers as they were not well raked when I played.   Musket Ridge is also pretty good.

Jerry,
I agree it's the best public - maybe in the state - but I think you're stretching the definition of DC area. I played the course just after it opened and again a couple years later. The zoysia had held up well and I'm glad to hear that continues.

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