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George_Bahto

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Leven hole - National Golf Links
« on: April 18, 2013, 12:07:33 PM »
At National you will now find the "ORIGINAL" look of their Leven. .....   The great 17th

I've "lobbied" for a long time to rid the flat-top of the Leven berm with its Don King style hair transplant look. They have been very busy getting the course ready for Walker Cup but Bill Salinetti the club's excellent Keeper Of The Green found some time and fit it into his work load, added just the right amount of material atop the berm, as well as some tangent shaping, to return the feature to its CBM's intent. Old photos taken during the original Walker Cup served as the source of information for the height and shape of the feature.

It's great to see a club like NGLA, its administration and its staff, be so aware of protecting the originality of their course.

17-NGLA has always been listed in the top 100 golf holes along with Redan, #4. Yes, a very short par 4 listed among the greatest holes.

Mr. Macdonald's version here is unique, in that with its overall downhill topography, it creates an interesting situation that I cannot recall at other Leven holes. The further (farther?) down you hit your ball, the less of the flagstick you see. Most Levens seem to have been built over  level or uphill land.

Great job Bill!
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 01:19:15 PM »
George,

Can't wait to see it.
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jkinney

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 04:21:08 PM »
George & Pat - I'll be at National briefly on May 1st and will photograph Bill Salinetti's work on the berm. Then I'll post the photo allong with the old look (as seen in my current Walker Cup thread). George, thank you for your tireless efforts. CBM is smiling down on you, I'm sure.
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Mark McKeever

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 04:25:19 PM »
George, how can you post something like this without pictures?!?!?

Mark
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Carl Rogers

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 08:26:05 PM »
I have been trying to look up what the definition of the Leven and cannot find one.

What are the defining characterstics of the Leven?
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 08:47:56 PM »
Quote from: Carl Rogers on April 18, 2013, 08:26:05 PM
I have been trying to look up what the definition of the Leven and cannot find one.

What are the defining characterstics of the Leven?

Easy tee shot to an area where the view of the green is obscured by a berm (NGLA) or mound, and a drive into a dangerous area results in a much more comfortable approach shot. 
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Matthew Essig

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 08:51:04 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on April 18, 2013, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: Carl Rogers on April 18, 2013, 08:26:05 PM
I have been trying to look up what the definition of the Leven and cannot find one.

What are the defining characterstics of the Leven?

Easy tee shot to an area where the view of the green is obscured by a berm (NGLA) or mound, and a drive into a dangerous area results in a much more comfortable approach shot. 

Does the "comfortable approach shot" mean you cab see part of the green or is the green always blind??
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"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Bill_McBride

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 08:53:55 PM »
Quote from: Matthew Essig on April 18, 2013, 08:51:04 PM
Quote from: Bill_McBride on April 18, 2013, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: Carl Rogers on April 18, 2013, 08:26:05 PM
I have been trying to look up what the definition of the Leven and cannot find one.

What are the defining characterstics of the Leven?

Easy tee shot to an area where the view of the green is obscured by a berm (NGLA) or mound, and a drive into a dangerous area results in a much more comfortable approach shot. 

Does the "comfortable approach shot" mean you cab see part of the green or is the green always blind??

In the case of the 17th at NGLA, "Peconic," unless you belt one very long and left, you will never see much more than the top of the flagstick.  I call that "uncomfortable."   Distance is hard to determine and the green is very shallow. 
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George_Bahto

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 08:56:57 PM »
{img/http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/th_DSC_2566-1.jpg/img}
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 09:17:45 PM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on April 18, 2013, 08:56:57 PM
{img/http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/th_DSC_2566-1.jpg/img}

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George_Bahto

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 09:27:28 PM »
 Bill Salinetti photo

sorry for the small picture - photobucket's got me spooked

anyhow - the hill has been seeded with native grasses - no irrigation and is growing in

Code: [Select]
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 11:53:33 AM by George_Bahto »
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mark McKeever

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 09:08:45 AM »
Looks great George.  Thanks!!

MM
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Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 09:52:39 AM »
With your work at The Creek, and now this, The Leven seems to be blossoming from its backseat role to The Redan, The Alps and The Short holes.  It seems an easy way to perk up a hole without costly maintenance, slowing play and intrigues golfers of all abilities.
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 11:50:57 AM »
Lynn, the key is to help  club membership understand the architect's use of hole and to help them understand the strategy of the holes themselves.

This is especially true in the case of Macdonald and his "henchmen" because of the definitive nature of the holes they used.

This was one of the underlyingj things I wanted to explain in my book.

Many clubs quickly lost sight of these strategies.     Why do I have to play this blind shot over a mountain,the Alps.       The Leven, same promlem.    They saw intrusive cross bunkering on thr Raynor Prize DL.          Too tight approaches on the "Narrows.   And so on

Gil. Jim  and I are restoring Westhampton CC. The 9 th was another contest,,prize winner from the Lido course which was being built at the same time as WHCC. The hole is called " Strategy"  offering a huge fairway, diagonally cross bunkered (120 ft).  A real beauty!

Early on, the club removed the entire left half of the fairway, eliminating one of the major lines of play. Happily, the club accepted our proposal to rebuild the hole as originally planned.

So educating members about the.intent of berating holes is imperatives during the restoration project.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Gib_Papazian

Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 01:29:07 PM »
It is always been my thought that the 14th hole at Stevinson Ranch was actually a combination Alps and Leven hole. Harbottle called an Alps, but one could make the argument it is actually a combination hybrid because of its shortish length.
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Chuck Glowacki

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2013, 04:25:45 PM »
Talked with starter/caddiemaster at Westhampton, he is thrilled with the work that has been done.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 08:52:24 PM »
George Bahto,

WCC is a terrific golf course, one that would get higher praise if it wasn't in the shadow of giants
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Rich Goodale

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Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »
Quote from: Gib Papazian on April 19, 2013, 01:29:07 PM
It is always been my thought that the 14th hole at Stevinson Ranch was actually a combination Alps and Leven hole. Harbottle called an Alps, but one could make the argument it is actually a combination hybrid because of its shortish length.

Good thought, Gib, but my memories of the 14th at Stevinson do not include any thoughts of trying to carry the mound/alp, even in those days (2001-2) when I could actually carry my driver a reasonable length.  My vote is "Alp."

Rich
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Sebonac

Re: Leven hole - National Golf Links
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 03:34:13 PM »
On 17....also looking at whether ridge on the back of the green...the side closest to the driveway...has become more pronounce over time.  It tends to save the less-than-crisply hit shots.
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