How is Old Mac's 4th....

[Matthew Essig]

not designed as a par 5?

Why not slide the tees back 30 yards? If one carried it over the Hogs Back, he could go for the green in 2. If not, it is 3 shots. I believe it would make the hole better.

I played Old Mac with my father again today and we both still don't quite understand the hole.

I might be told that par isn't relevant but my father and I were both closer to the hole after 2 shots on 15 then on 4.

[Sven Nilsen]

Which was was the wind blowing when you played?

[Matthew Essig]

Unusually calm.....    

(no direction)

[Alex Miller]

not designed as a par 5?

Why not slide the tees back 30 yards? If one carried it over the mound, he could go for the green in 2. If not, it is 3 shots. I believe it would make the hole better.

I played Old Mac with my father again today and we both still don't quite understand the hole.

I might be told that par isn't relevant but my father and I were both closer to the hole after 2 shots on 15 then on 4.

Maybe the point is it's not designed as either! It's just a golf hole that requires two good strikes to get home in two, and when the wind is from the South maybe a bit more (Driver-driver, say  ).

[Brett_Morrissy]

it is the hardest ranked hole on the card - I am pretty sure we played it with the wind form the North - managed a bogie, and will take that every time with that very difficutl green and nasty bowl at the front.

I noted in my pic of the green that we took - three of our fourballs all in that fronting hollow.

[William_G]

"the inherent beauty of true links golf is no golf hole will play the same day in and day out", no April fools

[Brett_Morrissy]

Matthew - Hog's Back - not knowing a lot about this hole template - I assume the goal of the design is to be either punished by the hog's back or rewarded by it off the tee?

what kind of carry did you have to get 'up onto or over' the hogs back?

[Matthew Essig]

My father doesn't remember individual holes very well so he didn't remember that 4 was a par 4... He thought he made a birdie on the hole when he scored a 4...

[Matthew Essig]

Matthew - Hog's Back - not knowing a lot about this hole template - I assume the goal of the design is to be either punished by the hog's back or rewarded by it off the tee?

what kind of carry did you have to get 'up onto or over' the hogs back?

I don't remember exactly but we were both sitting 225-230ish in the fairway collection area over/left of the hogs back.

[Matthew Essig]

"the inherent beauty of true links golf is no golf hole will play the same day in and day out", no April fools

Funny that you say that because last year when we played it, the wind was dead still, too, and we ended up within yards of the drives this year AND we both walked off with the same score as this year... Deja Vu occurred...

[JC Urbina]

Matthew,

The line on par is sometimes not applicable in links golf.  Having a roll out like you can get on pure fescue is so unpredictable, I have seen people hit the downslope of the hogs back and get an extra 20-30 yards.  

Curious what teeing ground you used.  I was playing last week with a group and one of them was surprised how far he were hitting it.  The others knew what to expect.  

The 4th hole was laid out with the summer breeze in mind. Next time feel free to move up and try a different set of tees, it might change your perception.

[Matthew Essig]

I understand everything that you all are saying, but imagine that the hole was 535 yards from the back tee.

[Alex Miller]

I understand everything that you all are saying, but imagine that the hole was 535 yards from the back tee.

Sounds like a par 5... boring! 

[William_G]

"the inherent beauty of true links golf is no golf hole will play the same day in and day out", no April fools

Funny that you say that because last year when we played it, the wind was dead still, too, and we ended up within yards of the drives this year AND we both walked off with the same score as this year... Deja Vu occurred...

sweet!  I like Crosby Stills and Nash 

[Matthew Essig]

Matthew,

The line on par is sometimes not applicable in links golf.  Having a roll out like you can get on pure fescue is so unpredictable, I have seen people hit the downslope of the hogs back and get an extra 20-30 yards.  

Curious what teeing ground you used.  I was playing last week with a group and one of them was surprised how far he were hitting it.  The others knew what to expect.  

The 4th hole was laid out with the summer breeze in mind. Next time feel free to move up and try a different set of tees, it might change your perception.

If the hole was playing into the winter breeze, I would understand that it would be a 3 shotter, but when the wind is 0-1 mph, the hole doesn't make sense. My father and I both hit the ball about 275-300 and for the ball to only go 250 because the balls get stuck in the fairway collection over/left of the hogs back doesn't seem.... Fair. On 10, the length isn't a problem for us. The fairway on 4 might be the problem.... But when I suggest the length alteration, I believe it makes more sense.

[Matthew Essig]

I understand everything that you all are saying, but imagine that the hole was 535 yards from the back tee.

Sounds like a par 5... boring! 

Isn't sort of one already 

[Alex Miller]

I understand everything that you all are saying, but imagine that the hole was 535 yards from the back tee.

Sounds like a par 5... boring! 

Isn't sort of one already 

Depends on the skill level of golfer and what tees they're playing. If an 8 hdcp is already only making par 60% of the time, a half-par hole really makes it close to a par 5 for them, doesn't it? So who is it a par 5 for? Not everyone...

[William_G]

Is this about you or your dad, LOL

FWIW, in the recent Pac 12 tourney played it as a par 5, because in a tourney score matters... check golfstat.com for stats

Mike Keiser took out the bunker Tom Doak had fronting the green on the front left.

In the summer the downwind nature of this hole called for it being long in winter/spring

Try playing 15, 16, 17, 18 at Trails in the summer  

I'm glad Mike Keiser is not into widget golf

thanks

[Matthew Essig]

I understand everything that you all are saying, but imagine that the hole was 535 yards from the back tee.

Sounds like a par 5... boring! 

Isn't sort of one already 

Depends on the skill level of golfer and what tees they're playing. If an 8 hdcp is already only making par 60% of the time, a half-par hole really makes it close to a par 5 for them, doesn't it? So who is it a par 5 for? Not everyone...

I can guarantee that just the 30 yards would make the hole play more than four and a half. It makes the hogs back more of an obstacle.

[Matthew Essig]

FWIW, in the recent Pac 12 tourney played it as a par 5, because in a tourney score matters... check golfstat.com for stats

At least I'm not the only person who thinks it then.

[Connor Dougherty]

Matthew,
The three times I have played Old Mac it has been in howling wind, the most recent example being with a group of solid golfers playing from the tips. The two who carried the Hog's Back had mid irons into the green, while my other playing partner and I hit hybrids out of the bunker on the right.

I think we hit the ball long but not exceptionally. Talking to the staff there they seem to try to set the tees in accordance with wind conditions. Perhaps playing that hole in the afternoon would have been much easier (although I can't say the same for the rest of the course)

[William_G]

18 at Old Mac into the wind can also be unreachable in 2 shots.

13 at Old Mac when playing down wind is drivable.

4 at Old Mac was designed by Doak for the prevailing wind out of the north.

I'm not a big Doak fan, but the design is such that it can be diffficult w/o wind, which is different than the Old Course. and I think an improvement. You can't have the wind be your only defense in design.

It is always a special time to play at Bandon w/o wind, as the courses are still difficult, yet a great score can be had.

That's the beauty of links golf, in that any score is possible on any hole and that "par is a relative thing".

Thanks

[Mac Plumart]

Par is the most powerful force in golf.

[Rob Rigg]

Matt - Did you hit your drive on the "right" line - ie) where you knew the distance would carry the hogs back?

This is obviously a par 4.5 and easily shifts from a 4 to a 5 depending on the wind, or lack of it. The same with the 6th which becomes a 4 when it's downwind or a 4.5 when it's super calm.

I always found that the priority is to carry the hogs back even if you have to take it a little more left. This normally leaves the opportunity to play a long rolling runner onto the green. Right is jail.

It's not an easy hole but I think it is excellent because of the strategy off the tee and the requirements for another great approach shot. On many holes at Old Mac, because of the width, you can get away with a less than stellar tee shot and still make par, or even birdie, with a great recovery.

I don't understand why they played it as a par 5 for the NCAA tournament considering the distance those guys hit the ball, unless it was playing into a strong wind every day and the tees were all the way back. If so, did they make the 6th a par 4?

[Ronald Montesano]

You both hit the ball 275-300? Really? That places you in quite an elite bracket. Congratulations on that feat.

I smoke the ball for a 5'9" guy and I count on 250 most days.