News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Please note, each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us and we will be in contact.


Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« on: March 31, 2013, 01:59:13 AM »
Played in in the semis of the SCGA team play champs today at Glendora CC, a RTJ gem from the mid 50's.  They have outsourced the maintenance to ValleyCrest.  The course was in perfect shape.  The greens were just so pure and true.  The members seem happy with the conditions.  Has anyone else had any experience with ValleyCrest or another outsourced model?   Is this the future of the golf ops model? 

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 02:18:37 PM »
Mixed experience with 2 different courses.

I always think it is interesting to hire a company for maintenance that is going
to make a profit off of the budget you would have anyway.

They have some buying advantages, and may share some equipment costs,
but I still believe, find the best superintendent, set your budget, and reward that supt for the product
(within the budget) that he gives you.

I have seen amazing things with what many consider bare bones budgets run by talented supers.
Go see Diamond Valley in Hemet if it isn't too far.  Absolute minimum budget (5 man crew) and a good, solid product

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2013, 02:36:10 PM »
Quite common in the Netherlands - hopefully Frank P will share his thoughts.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2013, 09:12:22 PM »
Pat,
I am not too far  in RSM. I have heard good things about Diamond Valley but never been out there.

So the question in today's environment is where is the break even assuming Staffing needs for an averagevclub. Just the HR cost could save a club lots of money.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2013, 11:02:15 PM »
Hard to imagine it succeeding in the private club arena

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2013, 11:09:28 PM »
Hard to imagine it succeeding in the private club arena

Why is that, Pat? I can see the possibilities for economies of scale. Not sure why an outside crew could not adequately maintain a private course. What do you see as the specific negative issues related to a private club?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2013, 11:32:03 PM »
World Woods use to have a management Co. handle their maintenance. Now, the conditions are vastly improved under one individual.



"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 12:01:39 AM »
Hard to imagine it succeeding in the private club arena

Why is that, Pat? I can see the possibilities for economies of scale. Not sure why an outside crew could not adequately maintain a private course. What do you see as the specific negative issues related to a private club?

CONTROL


Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 11:25:56 AM »
Hard to imagine it succeeding in the private club arena

Why is that, Pat? I can see the possibilities for economies of scale. Not sure why an outside crew could not adequately maintain a private course. What do you see as the specific negative issues related to a private club?

CONTROL


How so?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2013, 11:55:33 AM »
Mike,

The issue of control is tied to the economies of scale.  When using communal resources (e.g. purchasing, equipment in some cases, expertise), the local club loses autonomy.  IMO, the peculiarities of each course (incl. micro-climates) in maintenance needs and the membership are hard to direct from a district or regional office.  My experience in this is as a member of a non-equity private club for over 20 years which was bought by a REIT (symbol TEE) and run by an affiliated management company.  It was a huge mess- still is nearly 10 years after I left despite ownership and management changes.  I can only imagine how more difficult it would be for an equity club, particularly one whose members have very high expectations.

Lynn Shackelford would be an excellent source for this thread.  Maybe he'll chime in.  I tend to go Adam's way.  Hire a highly qualified individual, pay and treat him/her well, and communicate the expectations clearly.

Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 01:01:20 PM »
FWIW...the club we played is a member owned private club.  The members seem very happy with the service from the maintainance company. 

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 01:58:15 PM »
Several privates in Chicago tried it within the last several years.  They have returned to the self controlled model.

Michael Vogt, CGCS, CGIA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 02:52:32 PM »
Pros to outsourcing course maintenance:

-Improved operating structure
-Improved reporting structure
-Deep knowledge base
-They know what works
-Better purchasing power
-Shared equipment

Cons to outsourcing course maintenance

-Loss of local control
-Operating standards are dictated
-Often capital items are diminished
-Often less experienced superintendent
-Loss of ownership by staff
-Poor morale
-Bottom-line driven

I have been a superintendent in each scenario at private clubs. To be successful at a private club very satisfied members are the goal. A private club is in the business of collecting dues, not necessarily green fees. As a stand-alone entity (no management company) the superintendent’s ability to respond to member input is less cumbersome.

A private club with a management company normally sets a standard of maintenance and doesn’t deviate unless extra charges are imposed. The maintenance company normally has to make some money and any economies of scale are lost to profits.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 03:34:40 PM »
Michael sums things up well and Pat brings up the crucial point for me as an owner/operator--control.

Valley Crest actually came and gave me a proposal and explained their system.  I won't repeat what Michael said as he covers the pros/cons well but for me the most important issue is this--my most important asset is my golf course and I am not giving up final say in what happens or the relationship I have with my superintendent.  I would sub-out my food and beverage long before I'd sub out the guys taking care of my course.

I am sure Valley Crest and others will do as good a job as any budget allows them.  Any savings less their fee were not enough for me to take that plunge.  (Actually, they MAY have saved me 2% on my budget).  Plus, this is our 40th year in business and I feel like our relationships with all our vendors over those years is already resulting in competitive pricing and terms.  Lastly, regarding equipment sharing, that already takes place to a great degree among clubs and supers now.  
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 03:37:50 PM by Chris Cupit »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2013, 04:55:04 PM »
Hard to imagine it succeeding in the private club arena

Why is that, Pat? I can see the possibilities for economies of scale. Not sure why an outside crew could not adequately maintain a private course. What do you see as the specific negative issues related to a private club?

CONTROL


How so?

Michael,

Most private clubs are unwilling to cede control, prefering to manage their priorities, their staff and their budget as they see fit.

Years ago, at a club I'm very famiiar with, they wanted to purchase a huge leaf blower/collector.
Now this is a piece of equipment that's time of use is limited, and it's usually at the end of the season.
Due to the cost and the limited usage, it was suggested that we buy the equipment in conjunction with other clubs.
We approached the other clubs and all agreed that the idea was sound, especially from the financial end.

Then the question arose, where would the equipment be housed and who would decide on when each club would get to use the equipment.

It went rapidly downhill from there.

Each club wanted control.

It's difficult to change a "culture" and the "culture" of maintaining golf courses has been ingrained for about 100 years at many clubs.

From my limited experience on Green Committees and Boards,, I don't see clubs making the quantum leap from independent entitities to co-ops.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 04:57:34 PM »

FWIW...the club we played is a member owned private club. 

The members seem very happy with the service from the maintainance company. 

How did you determine that "the members seemed very happy with the service from the maintainance company" ?

Did you take a formal survey ?

If so, what were the numerical results ?



Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 05:18:25 PM »
Quite common in the Netherlands - hopefully Frank P will share his thoughts.

Two reasons for that.

Draconian labour lauws, so you do not want to employ employees in The  Netherlands ( and for that in most of the EU).
Frequently rotating grens committees and course managers with limited education.

Typically maintenance would deteriorate over time at a club, more and more greenkeepers would become sick, and the members would become unhappy. Clubs cannot easily fire greenkeepers that do not perform, and the fact that the club  isn't a professional organisation does not help. This gives clubs an incentive to go with an outsider party who takes over this problem area, and in most cases van improve maintenance in à short period to à hoger level, making the club very happy.

But in my view it does not work for ambitieus clubs in the long term.

You do not outsource your core business.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 09:14:12 PM »
Pros to outsourcing course maintenance:

-Improved operating structure
-Improved reporting structure
-Deep knowledge base
-They know what works
-Better purchasing power
-Shared equipment

Cons to outsourcing course maintenance

-Loss of local control
-Operating standards are dictated
-Often capital items are diminished
-Often less experienced superintendent
-Loss of ownership by staff
-Poor morale
-Bottom-line driven



These kinds of generalizations just drive me nuts. Typically industry speak.

I promise there are many self-managed clubs/courses that have great operating and reporting structure.
Knowledge base? So some know it all agronomists know more about his course than an excellent superintendent who has been on property for 20 years?

By the same token, there are plenty of self managed golf businesses that are bottom line driven (this is a bad thing?) and others that have very poor morale.

There has always been this managerial belief that success is about the process, not the people. I guess that sometimes works, but in golf, my experience is, good people make the process work, not the other way around.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 09:22:10 PM »
Don, Frank, et.,al.,

Private clubs are a luxury item and while controlling costs is an important consideration, it's not always the driving force, QUALITY is.

Members want quality and are willing to pay for it, unless the club is in financial distress, then costs begin to become more important.

The golf course is the greatest physical asset, the one that attracts and retains members.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 10:08:54 PM »
Lynn Shackelford would be an excellent source for this thread.  Maybe he'll chime in.  I tend to go Adam's way.  Hire a highly qualified individual, pay and treat him/her well, and communicate the expectations clearly.

If there is a monthly budgeted amount given to the maintenance company it works this way.  The more they spend the less they make.  The less they spend the more they make.  This recipe doesn't work long term.

If you want to pay them a fee and you determine the budget then it has some merit.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jeff Blume

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 10:38:57 PM »
Guys,

I did a course in Missouri City, Texas called Quail Valley.  It is owned by the city and the maintenance is done by Valley Crest.  In Quail Valley's case, Valley Crest makes a lot of sense because the city can have the course maintained at a good level of quality without hiring the maintenance staff.  Similar to what Frank said, city benefit costs are close to 50% of an individuals salary so labor expense in a municipal situation can be prohibitive.

I have not have any experience with Valley Crest at a private venue, but can see the pros and cons of that situation.  My experience is that the buying power argument does not hold much water since equipment companies are very agressive with pricing in this "soft" golf economy. 

Michael Vogt, CGCS, CGIA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 03:59:55 PM »
To Mr. Mahaffey, about golf course management companies:

CONS - I have worked with my share of clubs over my 33 years as superintendent, general manager and independent consultant and know for a fact a board or even the best general manager does not get as deep into the business of managing a golf course as a Troon, Kemper, Club Corp, American Golf or Valley Crest. Each task and hour has to be accounted for and reported each week. Methods and procedures are clearly defined. Add to that many management employees are compensated extra for achieving below budget expenditures and above budget revenues. Most golfers would want a leadership at their club to be motivated by very satisfied members and a finely conditioned course. Remember private clubs are in the business of collecting dues other golf entities relay on rounds, therein lies the difference.

PRO - As for knowledge base just think if twenty good superintendents put their efforts into solving particular golf maintenance problem how much better would the outcome be? That’s the upside of management companies.

PRO - I not saying self-managed golf courses are always bad. However, take an example of managing one fast food franchise or 50; you’ve cut your chances of poor revenue substantially, by the worst performers being helped out by the best. That’s the idea behind management firms having many courses in one geographical area. Add to that if you found a great method to accomplish production work like mowing, fertilizing or spraying, you could incorporate this method across your platform.

I would imagine that no golf business WANTS to lose money or better put-waste money. For-profit courses in the same area can also cross-market (overflow, tournaments, outings, and specials) and are keenly aware of not marketing against a sister course. Even the ultra-rich clubs don’t want to piss money away on methods and product without a reason or return.

CON - Morale is a hard one to put your finger on. Imagine if you’re working for a large company and greater than 50% of your golf course budget is labor. A management company is going to go after the low-hanging-fruit; how long can a crew operate without the incentive for benefits, wage increases, or vacation time? Consider that you have to crawl out of bed at 4 am, work in the heat and rarely get a wave or a pat-on-the-back for job well done! These conditions in time will cause a revolving door or low morale prior to the crew leaving. What are the costs to train a new golf maintenance staff? Employees are often treated as a simple commodity.

PRO - Management companies work because owners or other stakeholders do want to or can’t manage a golf course. I have worked with many golf courses as a consulting superintendent, several of these courses had “grass problems” and “people problems”; if the superintendent would have talked to local talent I would not have been called in. Each course is unique (more industry speak). There are some processes that are proven to work, if a superintendent is a good “grass grower” but has a marginal grasp of common business practices that superintendent is at a great disadvantage, wouldn’t you say?

PRO - Today with hundreds of chemicals and fertilizers at the superintendent’s hand, along with increased demands for better conditions for less or equal money the superintendent must be far better at business and agronomy than just 10 years ago. If you can’t or won’t hire the best superintendent the choice may be a management company.
 
CON - I worked with the largest management company in the world (you guess at this one) and I still have a bad taste in my month 6 years later. I now make a good living consulting with golf courses on many operational, strategic and agronomic issues in the U.S., public, private and municipal.

When I began my career in the 1970’s there were no management companies, greens were mowed at three sixteenths of an inch too!

Again, not every course or club performs best or suffers from a management company, it’s more dependent on a vast number of situations, too numerous to be addressed here. They are a growing part of the industry, whether we like them or not, the management company is here to stay.

This is a great topic, with many correct answers.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 05:40:22 PM »
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, other than making more broad generalizations.

I played a Kemper course not long ago where 6 maint guys were cleaning the edge of a single bunker.  The only thing missing was a pizza hut table cloth and a picnic basket. I may not have been a GM for the companies you mentioned, but I've been around a little and it didn't look all that efficient to me.
Last year I was at a course managed by a company named after a famous golfer. I saw one guy driving a golf cart while a guy in the passenger seat filled fwy divots. Didn't look all that efficient to me. If that time and motion study is going across someone's desk,  I'm guessing it is either falsified or not being paid attention to.

Does that mean all companies do stuff like that? No, of course not, that would be a generalization. But does it disprove the theory about all this super efficiencies that exists when you hire a management company? I think it does. Good golf management is more about the people then the process.

I don't care how good of a consultant you are, if you run into a stubborn guy not willing to listen to you,  you will not make the situation better, unless you are there to run him off. But work with a guy who welcomes help and wants to get better, different story. Good people make for good companies whether they are part of a group or self managed.

 Lastly, the 20 superintendent thing vs the one veteran and dedicated guy onsite? I don't know about the committee deal. I think having some trusted guys to bounce things off of is good. I'm not so sure the superintendent think tank really leads to better golf turf. More chemical remedies and super cool (and super expensive) foliar programs, maybe, better golf turf, I'm not so sure. I think supt think tanks driven by industry vendors is a lot of the reasons our maintenance programs are so damn expensive. I'll take a Dan Lucas, Eric Johnson, or Ken Nice (and lots of other guys as well)  over your 20 guys anytime.  And some of those guys are management company guys!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 05:48:33 PM »
Don,

From my limited experience, superintendents consult with one another presently when issues arise, so I'd tend to discount the value of having 20 consultants at one's disposal.

I've never been big on decisions by committees, rather, I prefer a single responsible party who's accountable to the club he's employed by.

In my very limited experience, it seems the only time a management company is introduced, is when the  owner is looking to cut costs, not improve the quality of the product.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Outsourcing Golf Course Maintainence
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 07:41:43 AM »
Michael,

I have to agree with Pat, Lynn and Don on favoring the independent, dedicated on-site superintendent led approach over the management company scenario. There are exceptions, but most management-driven course presentations put price/margin ahead of providing consistent, quality conditions. Respecting the fact that the presentation standards will vary according to the clientele, competent independent superintendents have delivered more consistently for the various facilities I've spent significant time at (13 different ones of all descriptions).

Management companies may be here to stay, and some, properly led, can do a fine job despite cost constraints. Sadly, and it is a familar pattern among many of them,  over time, the cutting of corners usually creeps in and the slide begins. If the attention to detail and consistent presentation are sustained, then those companies make sense. If not, then is their service really healthy for the facility... or the game?

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back