Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?

[David_Elvins]

Has anyone else noted a bunching up of Par 5 yardages?

It seems some architects are now scared to build short par 5s because they can play as par 4s for the longer hitter, and scared to build long par 5s that are a slog for the shorter hitter.

A recent (horrible) course on a flat site had 4 par 5s measuring 575 yards, 578 yards, 584 yards and 576 yards. 

[Alex Miller]

Has anyone else noted a bunching up of Par 5 yardages?

It seems some architects are now scared to build short par 5s because they can play as par 4s for the longer hitter, and scared to build long par 5s that are a slog for the shorter hitter.

A recent (horrible) course on a flat site had 4 par 5s measuring 575 yards, 578 yards, 584 yards and 576 yards. 

Ugh. Yes I feel like I see this more and more often too.

I would go so far as to say that it is not necessary to ever build a hole >550 yards. If it takes the longest hitters a good drive and long iron and is still enjoyable for shorter hitters, that's enough for me.

[David_Elvins]

I've generally avoided those lengths myself; I would guess that in thirty courses I've only built ten holes of that length.  But they include five of the best short par-4's I've ever built:

12th at Barnbougle - 270 yards
 2nd at St. Andrews Beach - 270 yards
 4th at Barnbougle - 297 yards
14th at St. Andrews Beach - 300 yards
 6th at Pacific Dunes - 310 yards

I'm just thinking maybe I shouldn't avoid those lengths after all, even though I know hardly anyone will like the 250-yard par-3's.

It's a pity that the 17th tee at St Andrews Beach is located where it is.  With a bit more room to the right, it would be pretty cool to have everyone playing the 16th hole off the back tee (260 yards).  

[David_Elvins]

Ugh. Yes I feel like I see this more and more often too.

I would go so far as to say that it is not necessary to ever build a hole >550 yards. If it takes the longest hitters a good drive and long iron and is still enjoyable for shorter hitters, that's enough for me.

Oops, just double checked my maths, this course had 3 par 5s measuring 550 +/- 5 yards and 1 measuring 585. 

All 4 had hazards narrowing the fairway or crossing the fairway at 470-480 yards of off the tee.  Which I think relates to what I wrote earlier in the thread that once an architect gets rigid in regards to lengths of holes, they get rigid in regards to haxards too.

[Garland Bayley]

...
What REALLY ticks me off is a course that has four par threes of 155-170, and a bunch of of fours that are in the 350-380 range.  For a short-hitting senior like me that's boring golf.  
...

Boy, you must be ticked off a lot! That is like a standard formula for every Tom, Dick, and Harry architect around here.

[Garland Bayley]

Ugh. Yes I feel like I see this more and more often too.

I would go so far as to say that it is not necessary to ever build a hole >550 yards. If it takes the longest hitters a good drive and long iron and is still enjoyable for shorter hitters, that's enough for me.

That's quite a turn around for you!

[Alex Miller]

Ugh. Yes I feel like I see this more and more often too.

I would go so far as to say that it is not necessary to ever build a hole >550 yards. If it takes the longest hitters a good drive and long iron and is still enjoyable for shorter hitters, that's enough for me.

That's quite a turn around for you!

Why is that? I've said before that courses don't seem to be providing the same shot values today, but I never opined about par 5s needing to be a certain length.

[Garland Bayley]

Alex,

There was a time when you and John K. Moore were advocating long par 5s where you needed to reach in three. You wanted to demonstrate your facility with fairway wood second shot to get you in position for the third. You two wanted me to play such long holes with you so I could see your viewpoint. I believe it was actually on that thread that I first came up the the 6125 yard course with equally spaced lengths of holes you see in my post on page 1. When I said I would be willing to go back and play the holes at your preferred length, you both said I was waaaaayyyyyyyy cooool.

As always,

Waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy Coooooooooool Garland

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

There was a time when you and John K. Moore were advocating long par 5s where you needed to reach in three. You wanted to demonstrate your facility with fairway wood second shot to get you in position for the third. You two wanted me to play such long holes with you so I could see your viewpoint. I believe it was actually on that thread that I first came up the the 6125 yard course with equally spaced lengths of holes you see in my post on page 1. When I said I would be willing to go back and play the holes at your preferred length, you both said I was waaaaayyyyyyyy cooool.

As always,

Waaaaayyyyyyyyyyy Coooooooooool Garland

My view may have shifted slightly, but even then I wasn't saying crazy long holes were NECESSARY, just that shot values have changed and a crazy long course would be required today to accurately mirror some golden age courses. Of course, that doesn't mean I think it's necessary to play a course that asks for as many mashies as 1930 pine valley might.

[Ken Moum]

...
What REALLY ticks me off is a course that has four par threes of 155-170, and a bunch of of fours that are in the 350-380 range.  For a short-hitting senior like me that's boring golf.  
...

Boy, you must be ticked off a lot! That is like a standard formula for every Tom, Dick, and Harry architect around here.

That's the truth.

My wife and I play a fair amount of vacation golf, which means a fair number of "resort" courses. But when I choose tees in the 6,000 yard range I almost always see a procession  of holes like that.

But when I play courses like Apache Stronghold or Sugarloaf Mountain, both sadly looking to be NLE, I see nothing of the sort.

K

[Garland Bayley]

I tried to come up with tees at Bandon Trails to simulate the hole lengths I have proposed.

130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555

On a quick attempt, this is what I came up with.

1   392    Black tee 392, call it the 380 yard hole.
2   166    Green tee 166, downhill, call it the 155 yard hole
3   532    Green tee 532, call it the 530 yard hole.
4   334    Gold tee 334, call it the 330 yard hole.
5   133    Black tee 133, call it the 130 yard hole.
6   359    Green tee 359, call it the 355 yard hole.
7   440    Black tee 440, call it the 455 yard hole.
8   283    Gold tee 283, call it the 280 yard hole.
9   567     Black tee 567, call it the 555 yard hole.
10   418    Black tee 418, call it the 430 yard hole.
11   445    Black tee 445, call it the 480 yard hole.
12   220    Gold tee 220, slightly downhill 17 plays a little short for 180, this one will play a little long for 205
13   308    Orange tee 308, call it the 305 yard hole.
14   251    Orange tee 251, downhill, call it the 230 yard hole.
15   405    Black tee 406, call it the 405 yard hole
16   494    Green tee 494, significantly uphill, call it the 505 yard hole.
17   180    Black tee 180, call it the 180 yard hole.
18   267   Orange tee 267, call it the 255 yard hole.
6195

Looks like a fun course to me.

[Garland Bayley]

I tried to come up with tees at Bandon Trails to simulate the hole lengths I have proposed.

130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555

On a quick attempt, this is what I came up with.

1   392    Black tee 392, call it the 380 yard hole.
2   166    Green tee 166, downhill, call it the 155 yard hole
3   532    Green tee 532, call it the 530 yard hole.
4   334    Gold tee 334, call it the 330 yard hole.
5   133    Black tee 133, call it the 130 yard hole.
6   359    Green tee 359, call it the 355 yard hole.
7   440    Black tee 440, call it the 455 yard hole.
8   283    Gold tee 283, call it the 280 yard hole.
9   567     Black tee 567, call it the 555 yard hole.
10   418    Black tee 418, call it the 430 yard hole.
11   445    Black tee 445, call it the 480 yard hole.
12   220    Gold tee 220, slightly downhill 17 plays a little short for 180, this one will play a little long for 205
13   308    Orange tee 308, call it the 305 yard hole.
14   251    Orange tee 251, downhill, call it the 230 yard hole.
15   405    Black tee 406, call it the 405 yard hole
16   494    Green tee 494, significantly uphill, call it the 505 yard hole.
17   180    Black tee 180, call it the 180 yard hole.
18   267   Orange tee 267, call it the 255 yard hole.
6195

Looks like a fun course to me.

I guess Jason's original question in this case amounts to, "Which is the better course? This one, or simply playing the course from the green tees?"

[Jason Topp]

I guess Jason's original question in this case amounts to, "Which is the better course? This one, or simply playing the course from the green tees?"

Garland - I took a look at this and am a bit hampered because I played the course in a south wind of 15 mph or so which is the opposite of the prevailing summer wind.  My take is that the course with the tees you suggest would be a worse course than simply playing the green tees.  The problem, as I see it, has to do with the design and hazards that would be out of play from the alternate tees.  For example, the sand ridge on 4 is the key to the hole and teeing off from a further back tee might take away the interesting decisions the ridge causes on the tee shot and force everyone to hit a blind second from behind the ridge.  On the 12th, the green is basically designed for a driver and shortening the hole makes it less interesting rather than more interesting.

I think you would need to build a course from scratch with this concept in mind and place hazards and fairway shapes to accomodate the design from those tees.

[Garland Bayley]

Jason,

Four was shortened. So you still have a blind drive, with the far bunkers over the ridge even more in play. 12 is out of reach by driver from the greens for a very large percentage of players there, so I guess the question is designed for who's driver?

I think 14 would rock at the shortened length. Not, that it doesn't rock already.