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Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
Make a golf swing where you actively throw the clubhead through the ball with enough right hand force to make the club leave your right hand....

by shear definition of what you wrote here...he is   trying to use his hands...that is the whole point...good swings DONT!!
You are contradicting yourself..in one sentence you say the above and that the ball will go shorter, then you say use of the hands will make the ball go farther...you are confusing me with what you really believe.
The hands of Vijay come off the club because his trunk stalls and the mass of the club continues to rotate...flip rlaative to the trunk...and THIS causes his hand to leave the grip.
IF he continued to rotate the trunk..the hand would stay on the club as IT rotates.
I agree that the hand comes off as a result of Physics 100%, we are saying the same thing there, but in this case it is only because the trunk stalls and the mass of the club continues to travel through centripetal acceleration...ie is moving faster than the hands relative to the engine which is the trunk.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 03:29:58 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2013, 12:22:33 PM »
Michael (or anyone but GB)

I'm trying to understand.


When Rory at the start of his downswing narrows the angle between his shaft and right forearm, he is therefore just increasing the distance the clubhead will travel to the ball and not really cocking his hands for a 'faster release'?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2013, 12:30:17 PM »
The drive of his legs forward creates a lag in the arms relative to the faster movng legs/hips at that stage of the swing.
He is NOT deliberately or I should say consciously creating that lag, and when that club reaches impact, secondary to the upper body ritation it will indeed have more speed than if no lag was craeted.
BUT...that is Not created by active use of the hands, it is passive relative to the rotation of the trunk.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 12:33:46 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2013, 12:47:52 PM »
The drive of his legs forward creates a lag in the arms relative to the faster movng legs/hips at that stage of the swing.
He is NOT deliberately or I should say consciously creating that lag, and when that club reaches impact, secondary to the upper body ritation it will indeed have more speed than if no lag was craeted.
BUT...that is Not created by active use of the hands, it is passive relative to the rotation of the trunk.

MWP,

Maybe I'm over simplifying, but could it be said like this?

The clubhead is moving fastest not when it has caught up with the hands, but when it is still in the process of catching up with the hands. The natural unwinding of the hips and rotation of the body allow for impact to happen when the club is catching up, and the hands act passively while this lag is utilized.





Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2013, 01:09:27 PM »
Michael,

We may actually be in violent agreement. It may be a misunderstanding of this.
GJ
...
Some players,especially less skilled of less flexible try to aid the release by using the hands to 'release'the head but that is less consistent and very reliable on timing.
Such players end up being somewhat streaky....Hubert green,rickie fowler to name two, ...

I interpreted this to be advocacy by you that some players, e.g., rickie fowler, "aid" (my interpretation -- enhance) their club head speed by being "handsy" or "flippy".

I have been arguing against that. You never seemed to correct me if I misunderstood. But, your recent statements make it sound like you are in agreement with me, and somehow think I am arguing that club head speed can be enhanced by the hands (edit) by top flight players.

(more edit)Clearly there are slow swinging old geezers out their that are increasing their club head speed by wrist flips.


« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 01:22:16 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2013, 02:30:31 PM »
Correct I am definately saying that any use of the hands will slow clubhead speed, versus the speed that can be created by rotating the trunk and the hands just "hang" on, much like what happens to the test tube in the centrifuge.

As said earlier that "flip' look is simply a resultant force vector created by the  source of power...the trunk..slowing down and the resultant anex to the source...the arms continuing to move faster than the trunk.
Add on top of this that the clubhead mass is heavier than the  grip end of the club and the face rotates.
The desired rotation of the clubhead happens simply passively.

Alex I can go with that, but in the most efficient golf swings that maximun speed occurs at impact, hence the importance of good set up fundamentals to allow that maximum velocity to occur at impact

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2013, 02:54:54 PM »
Alex I can go with that, but in the most efficient golf swings that maximun speed occurs at impact, hence the importance of good set up fundamentals to allow that maximum velocity to occur at impact

Yes, we are in agreement. Since the hands and hips are ahead of the ball at impact (rotationally), then that would match up with the maximum velocity occurring as the clubhead catches up to the ball. You need to maintain lag (passively) for that to happen.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2013, 03:35:36 PM »
Correct and maximum clubhead speed would occur when the attached lever ie arms and attached club are at maximum radius or arc length.
Thus the importance of ball position, posture,and good foot action through impact to allow the legs and hips to clear in advance of the optimum arm length.
And who said this game is hard ???
Now we know why it is so bloody hard to play this game, trying to get all that synched up.
Alternatively just swing the bloody hands at it !!!!!!!
that is soundINg like a better proposition all the time GJ..

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2013, 03:40:51 PM »
...
Alternatively just swing the bloody hands at it !!!!!!!
that is soundINg like a better proposition all the time GJ..

When I try to drive my osteoarthritic  knee into the ball like I used to when I was young, it hurts too much. You are right, handsy seems to be the way to go.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2013, 03:45:45 PM »
I sympathise, MRI on friday myself left knee, again.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2013, 04:13:16 PM »
I sympathise, MRI on friday myself left knee, again.

Cortisone has become my best friend!

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2013, 03:34:40 PM »
Isn't this just in essence another hitting v. swinging debate?  I think most of the pros described as "handsy" in this thread are players that "hit".  To me that involves not just the hands, but a more active right arm (shoulder, elbow, hand).  I agree that there are many more top players that "swing" these days, as it is a more consistent way to hit the ball.  Hitting is much more timing based.

As we get older however, it isn't as easy to generate the speed a mostly rotary swing gave us when we were younger and more limber.  We can gain some back through lateral movement, but many seniors hit/flip to help out as well.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 05:22:17 PM by Greg Clark »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2013, 04:25:00 PM »
When Rory at the start of his downswing narrows the angle between his shaft and right forearm, he is therefore just increasing the distance the clubhead will travel to the ball and not really cocking his hands for a 'faster release'?

You can simulate that narrowing by flattening the clubshaft a bit at the start of the downswing (you have to externally rotate your right shoulder).  Do that in front of a mirror...without changing the amount of down-cock in your hands, it will appear that you have increased the down-cock just by flattening the club coming down.  That is a limitation of analysis just looking at 2 dimensional pictures.

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2013, 04:47:14 PM »
But Kevin, it is way better to allow the lower body transition movement to the left to create that move in a passive manner, ie let it be the resultant of good mecahnics rather than fabricating it.
If you try to do it as you suggest, it makes it very difficult to the synch everything back into impact.  IMHO

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2013, 04:53:32 PM »
But Kevin, it is way better to allow the lower body transition movement to the left to create that move in a passive manner, ie let it be the resultant of good mecahnics rather than fabricating it.
If you try to do it as you suggest, it makes it very difficult to the synch everything back into impact.  IMHO

Oh I agree with you 100%.  I was just posting that it was the flattening of the club that makes the down-cock appear greater from a front view.

One guy on Golfwrx who has struggled for ages with the flattening move (the guy is doomed to eternal unhappiness I think...he is never satisfied with anything!) posted this little practice move that he's now doing...shows the lower body transition leading to a flattened downswing without any manipulation of the hands.

Here is the thing he does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SxkiP7Cqf1A
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2013, 05:00:32 PM »
 Kevin,
Some of those guys on that site are crazy man...I am currently in the middle of a ban from there for some opinions...
I know hard for anybody on here to think I may have any strong opinions :o and I didnt even use any foul language ;), simply defending my right to change coaches and have a differing opinion.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2013, 05:22:19 PM »
Do you think the modern equipment has anything to do with these discussions.  Going way back, I recall reading that the change from hickory with its torque to steel led to a more modern swing as first exemplified by Nelson.  Clearly Hogan adapted but did some players carry over moves that were borne out of a need to adjust to the vagaries of the older equipment?  How long did it take for instruction to catch up?  Venturi had a book analyzing pros" swings and he remarked about the greater use of the large muscles by some players as opposed to those who were more passive.  I will try to look at it tonight.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #92 on: March 19, 2013, 05:30:54 PM »
If you want to see the difference between 'active' hands and 'passive' hands watch Tiger et al on the PGA Tour and then go watch a Senior Tour event.

'Passive' doesn't mean they don't release or hold off releasing the hands, but rather the release is just a natural reaction to the body movement and clubhead momentum through the ball. By 'active' really what is meant is that the player consciously flicks his/her wrists to help time the swing or add power through the ball/impact zone.

Or at least that is my take on the topic!

51 posts in and it gets boiled down to the basics
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 05:34:44 PM by Greg Tallman »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #93 on: March 19, 2013, 05:40:01 PM »
Isn't this just in essence another hitting v. swinging debate?  I think most of the pros described as "handsy" in this thread are players that "hit".  To me that involves not just the hands, but a more active right arm (shoulder, elbow, hand).

I wade into this with trepidation but do you need to consciously cock and un-cock the hands to be a hitter?  Can't you control the wrist cock with the right elbow.  ie. the hands cock and un-cock naturally (passively) with the bending and straightening of the right elbow.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #94 on: March 19, 2013, 05:41:35 PM »
"Do you think the modern equipment has anything to do with these discussions"

SL_Solow -

There was an article a couple of weeks ago on this topic in the "Equipment Issue" of GolfWorld. The thrust of the article is that the  change in clubs & balls have definitely changed what is the "optimal" golf swing. With modern equipment, golfers do not have to work nearly as hard as they used to just to get the ball airborne.

I will see if I can find the article on the GW website.

DT

  

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #95 on: March 19, 2013, 05:51:13 PM »
David,  I saw the article.  I believe they were talking more about angle of approach and it focused mostly on the ball.  I am referring to the possibility that players may have been less inclined to use the rotational force of their bodies and may have been more dependent on their hands and arms because of the need to manipulate equipment that did not perform as well as modern shafts.  this was more likely with hickory.  I raise the question whether some of those possible adjustments crept their way into instructuional theory and remained well beyond their useful lives.  I seem to recall Tommy Armour stressing the use of the hands but it has been awhile since I read his books.  Henry Cotton?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #96 on: March 19, 2013, 05:58:02 PM »
"Henry Cotton?"

SL_Solow -

The conventional thinking, at least as I understand it, is that the smaller British ball encouraged/necessitated a "handsy-er" golf swing. The smaller ball has/had a lower center of gravity and needed a steeper angle of attack to get the ball airborne. That would account for Cotton's hand action.

In Michael Hebron's book "Feel the Inside Move the Outside," he quotes Sam Snead as saying that he played his best golf when his hands felt "dead" in his swing.

DT     

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #97 on: March 19, 2013, 09:16:29 PM »
newer golfers need to have their hands and arms trained to get a feel for swinging, a free release, and feeling the clubface.
As they progress to intermediate-advanced level, they need to be trained to control their release and clubface with the rotation of their body.
Better players will often describe the feeling as simply holding the club, or passive hands, or that their hands do nothing.
That's because their hands are already trained to swing freely and release, often to a fault, and they need to hold it off.
The stronger the grip and and/or the more closed the clubface, the more they need to passive hands through the ball

Try skipping a progression of learning with a beginner and go right to passive hands and pure body release, or better yet tell them to simply "hold the club" and NOTHING good will happen.
Tiger Woods or any expert will work hard to take the hands out of their swings to create power and consistency, but only because their hands were trained 30 years ago and needn't feel like they're doing anythig.

High handicap and beginner golfers who read instruction for advanced-expert golfers only are doomed to not improve,and risk getting worse.
People want to read what the best are working on, but most golfers would do well to read the works of Percy Boomer, Ernest Jones, Henry Cotton,John Jacobs,Tommy Armour,Bob Toski, Jim Flick,Harvey Penick, and Jim Mclean before moving onto the gurus who specialize in teaching Tour players.
Doesn't mean the gurus are not good teachers, just that the articles they write typically relate to the work and techniques they employ with experts(who already have trained hands and arms), because that's what magazines want.

Modern body release techniques were taught and used well before the modern equipment changed. Ben Hogan describes it in his 5 fundamentals, Jimmy ballard repioneered and evangelized the body release after the dark ages of advanced instruction in the 60s and 70's (the era of hang back and flip)
David Leadbetter was working with Nick Faldo with persimmon, balata, and blades. Jim McLean who popularized the term Progression of learning, has taught the big muscle swing for 30 + years to better players.
There are of course hordes of teachers who now teach the big muscle swing, because of the success of the above and others, and as a result, there are far more good-great players today.

Two players I have observed over the years who are awesome ballstrikers and have the ultimate big muscle swings, Hal Sutton and Hunter Mahan, have abysmal short games, due to the fact that they try to use a smaller big muscle swing for the short game, which often results in poor contact and abysmal feel. The good news is they miss very few greens.

 In the short game, the hands and arms have to be employed in the backswing to get the club in a striking position sooner, as well as to create feel. It's hard to toss a ball into a basket with your shoulder or trunk, but your hands will do just fine. A quiet hands, body release on the downswing however is quite desireable.
Handsier players usually are better bunker players and lobbers (Mickelson, Couples, Pavin, Donald, Tiger when he was handsier)
Pitching and chipping can be accomplished quite well with a proper body release, as long as the hands/wrists are preset, or allowed to set with minimal turn on the backswing (which is where and why big muscle short game players can suffer in the short game)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 09:29:29 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2013, 04:05:22 AM »
Try skipping a progression of learning with a beginner and go right to passive hands and pure body release, or better yet tell them to simply "hold the club" and NOTHING good will happen.
Tiger Woods or any expert will work hard to take the hands out of their swings to create power and consistency, but only because their hands were trained 30 years ago and needn't feel like they're doing anythig.

High handicap and beginner golfers who read instruction for advanced-expert golfers only are doomed to not improve,and risk getting worse.

Thanks for this.


In the 1970's the was a book called "We learned to Ski" that amazingly broke out of the sports market and spent many weeks in the national UK book lists.  It broke down the steps you needed to do to move from snow plough through parallel skiing.  The forward was by Jean Claude Killy who at the time was easily the most famous skier in Europe.  It was brief and to the point saying something like ‘I am amazed to see what I’ve been doing all along, I learned so young I never had to understand it.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Killy

So Jeff here’s the question

Recommend one book for the 20+ handicapper and one book for the improvers 10-19?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Swing
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2013, 06:31:57 AM »
When I was in my teens I used to buy Golf World and Golf Monthly and read the golf instruction sections with great interest. The trouble was that I just could not understand what they were describing. This was the era of Faldo and Leadbetter (with beach balls and other strange golf aids). I didn't understand the terms "release", "cocking the wrists", etc. and just assumed I'd get it some day.

A couple of years ago I decided to but Golf Monthly (after a hiatus of 25 years) and see if I could now understand the articles. Nah, not a chance. The usual buzzwords are used, but with no explanations. This is very frustrating; I'm a technically minded person but I just can't understand the golf swing. I bought Hogan's book a few years ago and thought it was very good at explaining the terms (e.g. supination) in an understandable way.

So, can someone recommend a good book to enable me to understand the golf swing (and M W-Ps posts  :D)? I don't care how technical it is, so long as it's explained well with graphics/pitures. I don't plan to rebuild my swing myself; I just want to understand the swing better than I do at present (which is no understanding at all).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 06:40:09 AM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »