The Perfect Swing

[Bob_Huntley]

I read two very interesting advertising magazines, namely GOLF and Golf Digest. With the plethora of instruction put out over the last forty years, a lot of it contradictory, I am surprised that everyone is not sporting a single digit handicap. I have seen many a natural swinger of a club get enamored of the latest guru and ruin a couple of years of his golfing life.

Bob

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Amen to that...now that is someting we can all agree on.
Good teachers, and there are very few of thsoe around, certainly take that into account.
One of the reasons I like Foley as a teacher, is not only his recognition of the instruct/learn continuum, but also that he worls his players around his fundamentals rather than the other way around.
Unless one is a real student of golf swings you cannot say his players all look or swing alike.
They may have certain Foley fundamentals, but not carbon copies of eachother, no method teaching in other wirds.
Butch would be another good one and my bias young Dan Whittaker in Manchester who I believe will be one of the worlds best some day.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

We will just have to agree to disagree on the hand action in the current top 50 players..most have very little.
There are  still some "handsy" players in there but not many..no harm no foul though..after all this site is all about opinions....

Michael,

Take a look at the Top 3 players in the world (Rory, Tiger, Luke)...a little hand rotation or a lot?

Kuchar
Snedeker
Moore
Rose
Simpson
Bradley
Mickelson
Fowler- Might be most release on the tour
Simpson
Gonzalo Fernandez-Castano
and the list goes on

The real question is what players in the top 100 take the hands out of the swing the most?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Well the hands are attached on the club..I am talking about 70"s style flipping, which Vijay, Bubba and to some extenet Phil still exhibit..Luke as well.
But Tiger..no way, his hands are so passive...all of Foleys students share that.
Kuchar as rotary as you possibly can be...perhaps we are not talking about the same thing...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Release and hands are two TOTALLY different issues, one can relaese without using your hands which is the premise of the modern swing...of which Fowler is NOT one of the examples
Very hands and so very hot and cold..
Lag is not created by the hands but by the lower body action leading the way..thus Sergi and Rory, but they are not handsy.

[Garland Bayley]

We will just have to agree to disagree on the hand action in the current top 50 players..most have very little.
There are  still some "handsy" players in there but not many..no harm no foul though..after all this site is all about opinions....

It's physics. The hands have to release (become handsy?). If they don't the ball don't fly. No opinion necessary.

It seems to me that opinions are the things that make up myths like great players being handsy.

[BCrosby]

The first time I saw Tiger up close was at the '97 Masters. One of the first things that struck me is how passive his hands were. They still are.

MW-P -

Do you know Dan Whittaker? I've seen a couple of his videos and was impressed. I did not know he was based in Manchester. He used Hunter Mahan's swing as a model for the videos I saw, another player with incredibly passive hands.

Bob

[Jason Topp]

It's physics. The hands have to release (become handsy?). If they don't the ball don't fly. No opinion necessary.

It seems to me that opinions are the things that make up myths like great players being handsy.

Garland - if you want to understand what MWP is talking about buymand read the first part of this

http://www.scribd.com/doc/88953936/SliceFixer-Encyclopedia-Texarkana

Somewhere in there is a great comparison of a handsy release (Tommy Aaron) and a moe modern release.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

We will just have to agree to disagree on the hand action in the current top 50 players..most have very little.
There are  still some "handsy" players in there but not many..no harm no foul though..after all this site is all about opinions....

It's physics. The hands have to release (become handsy?). If they don't the ball don't fly. No opinion necessary.

It seems to me that opinions are the things that make up myths like great players being handsy.

One simple thought does Iron Byron have hands that release?
Enough siad...sorry the hands DO NOT have to be active in the release, if you want to talk Physics, because the face/head of the club is heavier than the butt attached to the hands, centripetal acceleration causes the clubface to realease WITHOUT any active use of the hands.
Gents this is Physics

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The first time I saw Tiger up close was at the '97 Masters. One of the first things that struck me is how passive his hands were. They still are.

MW-P -

Do you know Dan Whittaker? I've seen a couple of his videos and was impressed. I did not know he was based in Manchester. He used Hunter Mahan's swing as a model for the videos I saw, another player with incredibly passive hands.

Bob

Bob,
He has been my coach for three years now.
To let you know how serious I am about this game, I fly him over three times a year to work on my game and visit him once or twice.
This young guy is briilaint and one of the reasons all this talk of hands and release in simple nonsense, that is simply NOT how the modern golf swing works, there is ery little active release it is all passive.
That is just the way it is, not going to get into any arguments, I know I am correct, seen the evidence, got my masters degree in Biomechanics, and I just know this stuff.

[David_Tepper]

Any Chuck Quinton fans out there?

http://www.rotaryswing.com/

[David Royer]

I've been fortunate to visit Cheryl Anderson at Mike Bender's Academy in Lake Mary, Fla the past two winters.  Cheryl is a top 10 woman teacher and top 100 teacher.  I'm big believer in their philosophy of the swing.  Learning how to transfer the stored energy from the rotation to club face is key for me.  Highly recommend her. 

[Bill_McBride]

Gents this is Physics

Physics!  LOL, just last fall I had a couple of distinguished GCA fellows laugh at me when I told then that a car's turning radius decreases as the vehicle accelerates!   

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Exactly Bill, you cant reason with lack of knowledge..the old m x v squared divided by radius...exactly

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The first time I saw Tiger up close was at the '97 Masters. One of the first things that struck me is how passive his hands were. They still are.

MW-P -

Do you know Dan Whittaker? I've seen a couple of his videos and was impressed. I did not know he was based in Manchester. He used Hunter Mahan's swing as a model for the videos I saw, another player with incredibly passive hands.

Bob

But mr Crosby..how can that be?
If the hands dont release the ball wont fly?......It's Physics   

[Eric Strulowitz]

We will just have to agree to disagree on the hand action in the current top 50 players..most have very little.
There are  still some "handsy" players in there but not many..no harm no foul though..after all this site is all about opinions....

It's physics. The hands have to release (become handsy?). If they don't the ball don't fly. No opinion necessary.

It seems to me that opinions are the things that make up myths like great players being handsy.

One simple thought does Iron Byron have hands that release?
Enough siad...sorry the hands DO NOT have to be active in the release, if you want to talk Physics, because the face/head of the club is heavier than the butt attached to the hands, centripetal acceleration causes the clubface to realease WITHOUT any active use of the hands.
Gents this is Physics

It has been a while since I have had lessons, but I used to see Lynn Blake, aka "Yoda".

He helped me more than anyone else, and one thing he told me was to think that my hands were" frozen in ice" once I gripped the club.   He was trying to get me to think of my hands as frozen, or fixed,  and to use the pivot to hit the ball.  Thinking of the hands as fixed, gave me a whole lot less throwaway, and a whole lot more lag.

Everytime I find myself getting too "handsy" , I think of this imagery and it helps get my game back on track.

So, I really tend to agree with you.  Although I have seen articles and instructors that really emphasize active hands and wrists.  Only thing with relying heavily with the hands and wrists is that it brings a lot of timing into the equation, and it would take a lot of practice to really groove that timing.

[Garland Bayley]

The first time I saw Tiger up close was at the '97 Masters. One of the first things that struck me is how passive his hands were. They still are.

MW-P -

Do you know Dan Whittaker? I've seen a couple of his videos and was impressed. I did not know he was based in Manchester. He used Hunter Mahan's swing as a model for the videos I saw, another player with incredibly passive hands.

Bob

But mr Crosby..how can that be?
If the hands dont release the ball wont fly?......It's Physics   

I can see now that the tongue in cheek writing attempt failed.

[Bill_McBride]

Exactly Bill, you cant reason with lack of knowledge..the old m x v squared divided by radius...exactly

So velocity up, radius down?   

[Garland Bayley]

We will just have to agree to disagree on the hand action in the current top 50 players..most have very little.
There are  still some "handsy" players in there but not many..no harm no foul though..after all this site is all about opinions....

It's physics. The hands have to release (become handsy?). If they don't the ball don't fly. No opinion necessary.

It seems to me that opinions are the things that make up myths like great players being handsy.

Let me explain a little more. "ball don't fly" was meant to convey in a slang like expression that release contributes to the distance significantly.
In five lessons, Ben Hogan says no one can get the hands actively involved (my definition of "handsy", perhaps yours is different) and play great. So I am wondering what exactly you mean by handsy. Is there a Biomechanics definition?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

GJ
I don't understand what you are asking,Hogan is saying exactly what I am saying there isn't any active release with the hands.
The release is created by the trunk rotation and the mass of the head itself releases the club,not the hands just as Hogan is saying.
Some players,especially less skilled of less flexible try to aid the release by using the hands to 'release'the head but that is less consistent and very reliable on timing.
Such players end up being somewhat streaky....Hubert green,rickie fowler to name two,but the majority of the modern top players rely on passive release,that created by rotation of the trunk and legs which creates more speed and more consistency .

[Rich Goodale]

After reading all this, I am very glad that I never had a proper golf lesson, and probably never will...

[Jason Topp]

After reading all this, I am very glad that I never had a proper golf lesson, and probably never will...

Rich - I used to have that viewpoint and almost never practiced.  With young kids, less time to play and plenty of swing flaws, my handicap slowly rose from about a 4 or 5 to a 16 over a ten year period.   I found the game so frustrating I wanted to quit but found myself nonetheless drawn to the game.  I finally decided I would actually work on my game, be patient with it and try and see if the game was more enjoyable using that approach.

Once I found an instructor I liked, I found working on my game at least as fun as actually playing.  Many years I improve a bit (although I have been stalled the last few) and it takes a lot less time to practice than it does to play.  I find a lot less frustration in practicing than I do on the course and playing is more fun when there is some optimism that the game will get better eventually.     

[Garland Bayley]

GJ
I don't understand what you are asking,Hogan is saying exactly what I am saying there isn't any active release with the hands.
The release is created by the trunk rotation and the mass of the head itself releases the club,not the hands just as Hogan is saying.
Some players,especially less skilled of less flexible try to aid the release by using the hands to 'release'the head but that is less consistent and very reliable on timing.
Such players end up being somewhat streaky....Hubert green,rickie fowler to name two,but the majority of the modern top players rely on passive release,that created by rotation of the trunk and legs which creates more speed and more consistency .

So you are saying that Hubert Green, and Rickie Fowler are "handsy". What is the definitive characteristic that can be measured to made such a determination?

[Rich Goodale]

After reading all this, I am very glad that I never had a proper golf lesson, and probably never will...

Rich - I used to have that viewpoint and almost never practiced.  With young kids, less time to play and plenty of swing flaws, my handicap slowly rose from about a 4 or 5 to a 16 over a ten year period.   I found the game so frustrating I wanted to quit but found myself nonetheless drawn to the game.  I finally decided I would actually work on my game, be patient with it and try and see if the game was more enjoyable using that approach.

Once I found an instructor I liked, I found working on my game at least as fun as actually playing.  Many years I improve a bit (although I have been stalled the last few) and it takes a lot less time to practice than it does to play.  I find a lot less frustration in practicing than I do on the course and playing is more fun when there is some optimism that the game will get better eventually.     

To each his own, Jason.  However, over 40 years my handicap has never ventured below 4 or over 9 and if it ever gets over 10 I'll take up lawn bowling and give up my golf rather than go to a pro.  I have better things to think about than pronation.  (Insert Dan Kelly Approved (tm) smiley face here).

Rich

[Jason Topp]

To each his own, Jason.  However, over 40 years my handicap has never ventured below 4 or over 9 and if it ever gets over 10 I'll take up lawn bowling and give up my golf rather than go to a pro.  I have better things to think about than pronation.  (Insert Dan Kelly Approved (tm) smiley face here).

Rich

Understood.  I am not trying to convert you.  I just want to beat you.