[Ronald Montesano]

I know that Jay Flemma is a fan of CPC (#2), but for the life of me, I don't understand how it is on the list at all. It is a homespun course on an interesting piece of property, but that's it. I've put my list of these 15 courses together after the official GW one and fully expect commentary (thumbs up and down.) I have noted which courses I have played and which ones I have not.

Have at it.


New York

1) Bethpage State Park (Black), Farmingdale (No. 21 c)

2) Conklin Players Club, Conklin (m)

3) Links at Hiawatha Landing, Apalachin (m)

4) Leatherstocking, Cooperstown (c)

5) Turning Stone Resort (Atunyote), Verona (m)

6) Turning Stone Resort (Kaluhyat), Verona (m)

7) Saratoga National, Saratoga (m)

Pound Ridge GC, Pound Ridge (m)

10) Tallgrass CC, Shoreham (m)

11) Bethpage State Park (Red), Farmingdale (c)

12) Whiteface Club, Lake Placid (c)*

13) Turning Stone Resort (Shenendoah), Verona (m)

14) Sagamore GC, Bolton Landing (c)

15) Montauk Downs State Park, Montauk (m)


Ron's List

1) Bethpage State Park (Black), Farmingdale (No. 21 c) (have played)

11) Bethpage State Park (Red), Farmingdale (c)  (have played)

5) Turning Stone Resort (Atunyote), Verona (m)  (have played)

10) Tallgrass CC, Shoreham (m)  (have played)

4) Leatherstocking, Cooperstown (c)  (have played)

9) Ravenwood, Victor (m)  (have played)

3) Links at Hiawatha Landing, Apalachin (m)  (have played)

6) Turning Stone Resort (Kaluhyat), Verona (m)  (have played)

7) Saratoga National, Saratoga (m)  (have played)

Pound Ridge GC, Pound Ridge (m)  (have NOT played)

12) Whiteface Club, Lake Placid (c)*  (have NOT played)

14) Sagamore GC, Bolton Landing (c)  (have NOT played)

15) Montauk Downs State Park, Montauk (m)  (have NOT played)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replacement Candidates
X) Greystone  (have played)

Y) Peek 'n Peak Upper Course  (have played)

Z) Seneca Hickory Stick  (have played)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should be off this list
13) Turning Stone Resort (Shenendoah), Verona (m) (have played)

2) Conklin Players Club, Conklin (m)  (have played)

[Mark Saltzman]

Ron, did the list change a lot from last year? I thought Ravenwood was on it.

[astavrides]

I liked Conklin, but I was also surprised to see it (and Hiawatha) so high and Bethpage Red so low. 

[John Blain]

Whiteface Inn? Conklin Players Club? Kahluyat?  Seriously?

I would take Seven Oaks hands-down over those three.......just my opinion, of course.

[Mark Saltzman]

My NY public list (haven't played much) would look like...

Bethpage State Park - Black
Bethpage State Park - Red
Mill Creek
Ravenwood
Seneca Hickory Stick
Greystone
Turning Stone - Shenendoah
Harvest Hill

[John Blain]

Mark-

Bethpage Black and Red speak for themselves and I like Ravenwood very much. You can have the other five!

John 

[Mark Saltzman]

John, you don't like Mill Creek? Why not?

[Tim Gavrich]

Ron, what about Copake? Me, I'd rather play it than both Hiawatha and Pound Ridge, the only courses I've played from that list.

[B.Ross]

so i'm a downstate (NYC) guy so i've only played a handful of these places but here are my two cents:

montauk downs is way too low. yes the round isn't highly enjoyable b/c of the pace of play, but the course speaks for itself.

i've played tallgrass a ton of times. its very enjoyable playable and i like it, but it's either under sloped/course rated or quite frankly its just not challenging enough to be on the list. (side note, trick on tall grass #18 is to hit the ball into the 1st fairway and play from there instead of trying to split the traps)

[John Blain]

John, you don't like Mill Creek? Why not?

Hi Mark-

In fairness I have only played Mill Creek once and it certainly isn't the worst course I have ever played but there were just some holes out there that I didn't care for. Numbers 10 and 11 in particular seemed out of place. Number 10 you drive it off a cliff to God knows where and #11, if I remember, is a "single file" par 5 up a hill that just didn't do it for me. I also wasn't crazy about the par 3 closing hole. I also sort of found the course to be a tough walk although Bethpage is difficult as well. Maybe I am being unfair or I need to play it again but for whatever reason it just didn't do it for me.

Best,
John

[Mark Saltzman]

John,

Fair enough re #11.  It is a difficult hole, but not what I would call 'single file'.  Aside from the tree in front of the green, I think Albanese did a pretty good job of creating an interesting hole on a very severe piece of the property.

Re #10: My understand is that is now a par-3.  Instead of driving over the hill on the tee shot there are now tees at the top of the hill that have turned the hole into a ~200 yard drop-shot par-3.

#18 is a par-4.

And, yes, very difficult walk.

[John Foley]

My List of those I've played:

1) Leatherstocking
2) Hiawatha
3) Greystone
4) Shenendoah
5) Bristol Harbor - shocked this doesn't get more pub
6) Seven Oaks
7) Ravenwood

Others that should be considered for best in the state public access are Harvest Hill, Arrowhead, Seneca Hickory Stick, Mark Twain, Ivy Ridge & Unionvale

Not a big fan of Mill Creek - that said there are some VERY good holes out there but more that the share of stinkers including the aforementioned 10, 11 & 18.

CPC is OK but IMHO not anywhere near as good as those on my list.

Kaluhyat & Atunyote are just too expensive and lacking depth - the bad holes weigh them down.

Have not played so cannot include - Bethpage, Saratoga National, Pound Ridge, Whiteface, Sagamore or Montauk Downs

[Ronald Montesano]

Ravenwood was on it last year.

JP, I forgot about seven oaks...yes, i would list it top fifteen.

Tim, i like copake a lot...don't know if it would be seen as top 15 by all raters, but I would encourage them to play it.

[Ronald Montesano]

john, what holes at atunyote are bad?

[SteveOgulukian]

so i'm a downstate (NYC) guy so i've only played a handful of these places but here are my two cents:

montauk downs is way too low. yes the round isn't highly enjoyable b/c of the pace of play, but the course speaks for itself.

i've played tallgrass a ton of times. its very enjoyable playable and i like it, but it's either under sloped/course rated or quite frankly its just not challenging enough to be on the list. (side note, trick on tall grass #18 is to hit the ball into the 1st fairway and play from there instead of trying to split the traps)

I agree that Tallgrass is very overrated. Not saying it's a bad course but it is far from great.  Conditions are average at best most times I've played there and what they've done to the 6th hole is a travesty.

[Mac Plumart]

Steve...

I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on Tallgrass. 

I've only played it once, but I thought the design was great.  I thought the designer got the most out the small piece of land he had to work with.  I thought the bunkering was great...great placement which required lots of thought and planning prior to hitting your shots.  The big negative was that the course screamed for the ground game, but the course wasn't maintained fast or firm...so ground shots weren't a real option.


BRoss...on 18, the guy I played with, Wade S. From this very site, wanted to play up 1 fairway...but a group was teeing off on 1 and we had a group kind of close to us on 17...so we couldn't wait for 1 to clear. Looks like his idea might have been the right one.  Funny!

[Kevin Lynch]

John,

Fair enough re #11.  It is a difficult hole, but not what I would call 'single file'.  Aside from the tree in front of the green, I think Albanese did a pretty good job of creating an interesting hole on a very severe piece of the property.

Re #10: My understand is that is now a par-3.  Instead of driving over the hill on the tee shot there are now tees at the top of the hill that have turned the hole into a ~200 yard drop-shot par-3.

#18 is a par-4.

And, yes, very difficult walk.

#10 - never did get comfortable with that hole as a par 4, and they gave up on the blind tee shot for liability reasons.  Now, it makes a reasonably interesting drop-shot par 3 (170 yarder played with a 135-140 club).

Not sure what you mean by a "single file" hole re: #11.  There are plenty of angles to choose on both the first & second shots.  The tree just short of the green really affects your layup strategy, depending on the pin position.  Yes, it's an awkward hole, and I'd say 90% of people hate it on the first play (because it's hard to visualize the options).  But, after repeated plays, I've come to appreciate the hole even more.

In general, I'd say that may be my general impression of Mill Creek.  It's difficult to get comfortable, because many of the landing areas / strategy are tough to visualize.  It is a course that is fun for the repeat player / member, but can frustrate a first-time visitor.  I used to be more lukewarm about it, but I came to appreciate the course more the last few times out.  Centerline hazards, multiple options, decent greens - I'm actually a big fan.

And while 18 isn't a par 3, it definitely is another one of those "difficult to visualize" holes.  Awkward, but still interesting.  Perhaps John's thinking of the par-three 9th (severely uphill).  I enjoy the hole, but could see it being a polarizing design.

[Kevin Lynch]

Steve...

I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on Tallgrass. 

I've only played it once, but I thought the design was great.  I thought the designer got the most out the small piece of land he had to work with.  I thought the bunkering was great...great placement which required lots of thought and planning prior to hitting your shots.  The big negative was that the course screamed for the ground game, but the course wasn't maintained fast or firm...so ground shots weren't a real option.

Ditto for me - real disconnect between design & maintenance.

However, if I recall our conversation correctly, you visited the course within a week or so of my only play (~mid July 2011), so it may have been a short-term conditioning anomaly.  Perhaps Steve or BRoss can tell us what the "norm" is for firmness.

[B.Ross]

steve - what have they changed about 6 at tall grass? i remember that was an uphill short par 4 where if you poke it and carry the trap down the left side, you can get the green?

what changed?

[Kevin Lynch]

I've not played Montauk Downs or Hiawatha Landing, but my favorites would be:

- Bethpage Black
- Leatherstocking
- Bethpage Red
- Mill Creek - takes multiple plays to appreciate (unless you're a one-time visualization savant like Saltzman)
- Ravenwood
- Links at Union Vale - my surprise of 2011
- Byrncliff - even with its flaws, one of my favorites for variety
- Atunyote

I really don't get the large appeal of Seven Oaks - it just didn't do much for me.

[Ronald Montesano]

I believe that I read that #6 is now a par three, rather than a driveable par four, at Tall Grass.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

JP, I forgot about seven oaks...yes, i would list it top fifteen.

Seven Oaks is very solid and the conditions are magnificent. But I can't really rank it since the only course I've played is Bethpage black.

Seven Oaks #6

[Ronald Montesano]

I suspect that Blain's affinity for "Siete Robles" is akin to Kevin's growing contentment for Mill Creek: familiarity with nuances.

I forgot Union Vale. It would be up in the mix for bottom five of the fifteen (if we were restricted to 15.)

[Paul Perrella]

I have not played a couple of these in quite a while but others I have played quite a bit.

1. Black

2. Sagamore

3. Shenandoah

4. Grossingers NLE?

5. Montauk Downs

6. Saratoga National

7. Atunyote

8. Leatherstocking

9. Saranac Inn

10. Spook Rock

11. Malone

12. Greystone

13. Hiawatha Landing

14. McCann

15. Conklin

The monster at The Concord and Hanah are two that I enjoyed but have not played in a very long time.

[jeffwarne]

I believe that I read that #6 is now a par three, rather than a driveable par four, at Tall Grass.

The tees have been up at about 200 the last two times I played it.(Dec, Jan)
 There are 3 maintained tees behind that tee and the card still indicates par 4.
Not sure if it's a safety issue or slow play issue.
It's a good hole at all yardages, but would like to see them use something besides all markers on front tee.

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