[Joe_Tucholski]

1. My last round was at 6802 par 72 and that's about as long as I like to go
2. My "home course" in CA I usually play from 6628 par 72 which is a perfect distance for me to enjoy the round

I tabulated the results so far (excluded the courses that were listed as other than par 72).  I had 123 different responses.

Average away course distance was 6596
Average home course distance was 6434

8 people played their last round at an away course over 7000 yards
4 people played their last home round over 700 yards

3 people played their last round at an away course under 6000 yards
6 people played their last home round under 6000 yards

I find it interesting people tend to play longer rounds when away from home (myself included).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lost in this question is the relevance of "par"

Par 70
Par 71
Par 72
Par 73

6,900+ at par 73 differs considerably from 6,800 at par 70

Montclair, in NJ, has to be one of the longest short courses you'll ever play, especially in the Spring.

If you believe in giving something back to the game, and I do, your course should make itself available for outside tournaments for your local and regional golf associations, amateur and PGA, and even the USGA for qualifiers or events.

If you do, in today's world, the course can't offer an adequate challenge at 6,400 unless you gimmick it up.
So while we may bemoan length, it's a reality that has to be accounted for.

The real solution lies in either Far Hills or Augusta

[V. Kmetz]

"If you do, in today's world, the course can't offer an adequate challenge at 6,400 unless you gimmick it up.
So while we may bemoan length, it's a reality that has to be accounted for."

I disagree with the ubiquity of that statement; I think it depends on the course, the conditions, the greens, the distribution of the yardage and the nature of the competitive field.

One of the reasons, beyond affinity for the people and my happy tenure there, I proclaim Siwanoy as a marvel is that it has hosted three US Open locals in the last decade and not once was the place shredded...no crazy pin and greens that were a morning 12.2, a midday 11.4 and a late day crusty 10.8 ...beyond reams of anecdotal evidence when fine players would visit privately.

I admit you're more right than wrong about this and few courses can stand up at 6350 the way Siwanoy does, but they exist.

As to your primary note, Par is 72 everywhere for me...level fours, every hole from 80 to 650 yards is a solution of 4.  Why does it matter (except for at-a-glance Red/Green scoring)?  Rating and slope don't consider the extant par...do they?  I agree its different mentally for a competitor, but you could shut that out too and it doesn't/shouldn't affect ones strategy for a hole.  If I don't tell you the par and just say its 483, how would that change how you play it.  Same thing if I say 268...but no par.

(Heh-heh, I "greened" you)

cheers

vk

[Mark Provenzano]

Paiute Wolf - Played the White (probably Senior?) tees at 5910. If it weren't 43 degrees with a 5 club wind howling, the Yellow/Men's tees at 6483 would have been the choice--the course is a blast from there when the weather isn't so awful.

The tips there max out at 1700 yards longer than the tees I played from.

[John Ezekowitz]

1) Last rounds were at my home courses (below). I generally will play from the tips unless it is over 7,200 yards.

2) Belmont CC- 6,855 and Springdale CC - 6,400

[Ally Mcintosh]

Following up the thread about the "need" for long courses, I wanted to take a survey of participants on this site, for some reference data.  If you would be so kind, please provide the following numbers:

1.  Where did you play your most recent round of golf, and what yardage did you play from?

2.  What's your home course, and what yardage do you normally play from?

For me:

1.  Streamsong (Blue), 6698 yards.  We had it set up right on the blue tee plates for the Renaissance Cup, and with a little wind, a bunch of people complained about how long it was, how a couple of par-4's were unreachable, etc.

2.  Crystal Downs, 6302 yards.  That's from the white tees.  I only play the blue tees now when I have a guest who wants to.  It's still only 6518 yards from the back.

Question 1 and 2 the same answer.

Portmarnock. Last round at about 6,650 yards markers but in truth they would have been forward of that... Let's say 6,500 yards...

Normally, either the second or third back... So anywhere between 6,500 and 6,900 yards...

Generally feel comfortable on courses around the 6,700 yard mark on reasonably calm days which are dry underfoot. That yardage gives me the best mix of fun and challenge... Play off a handicap of 5.... However, would much rather play shorter than longer if I had to swing one way of that number...

[Simon Holt]

1. Royal Musselburgh
   James Braid
   Par 70, 6237

2. North Berwick West Links
   God
   Blues (everyday members and visitor play) 6140 par 71
   Medals (strictly only for members competition and Final Open Qualifying) 6464 Par 71. 

And for all those that think you need length the course record is held by Trevor Immelman at 63; 2002 Final Open Qualifying first day, nae wind.  The next day with 15 mph the lowest score of the day was 66 with the next lowest at 68.  134 was the lowest 36 hole score. 

I think its an example of a course that doesn't beat you up but its not that easy to go crazy low, which is probably why so many people enjoy playing there.  The members course record stands at 65 and is rarely even touched; surprising as there are some very capable players.  Most scratch medals in normal conditions are won with a score of 68-70.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Last
Houston CC (back 9)
Par 36, about 3500

Home
Champions GC (Cypress Creek)
Par 71, 7300

[Tom Yost]

Most recent:
 Maryvale GC - 6646 (Blue/back tees);  70.7/120

Home:
 Longbow GC - 6472 (one up);  69.9/125

Depending on the course, I typically opt for something in the 6300-6500 range, but readily move up with a more challenging course or conditions.  Much past 6800 and I begin to struggle.  For reference: 57 year old ~11 hc.

[Greg McMullin]

Tom, I asked this question back in 2008 and received 2 pages of responses. You might want to add it to the data you are collecting on this thread. Here is the link http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37658.0.html

[Matt Gabellieri]

Blissful Meadows Golf Club - 6210

[Howard Riefs]

In case you missed it on the "What Augusta Knows about the Average Golfer" thread, Tom commented on the results thus far...

Peter:

Just ignore Patrick; Augusta surely will.

I was a bit surprised by the numbers reported back in my thread.  I expected a higher percentage to endorse 6800 or 6900 yard options, although in truth, there are fewer and fewer courses with tees at that length.  The reason is simple math -- if the client insists on back tees at 7200 yards, like Streamsong, and the architect insists on no more than four sets of tees, with the smallest at +/- 5300 for women, then 6900 is just NOT going to be one of the two incremental stops in between.  Generally, it's 6500 and 6000, because that's what golfers want ... even though, as Pete Dye told me thirty years ago, the only way to make modern courses playable for the average golfer is to make the middle tees 5700 yards, and then lie and claim they're over 6000, otherwise nobody would play them.

So, I'm glad I asked what yardages people actually play from, instead of asking what they wanted, because if I'd asked it that way, too many posters might have postured that they wanted to play from longer tees than they really need.  

[Steve Wilson]

Through the years I've played most of my golf from around 6500 yards if that set existed.  I never want to go longer and will in the future seek out shorter tees.  First of all, I'm getting shorter as I age and secondly I am playing hickories more and more.

Ask me next year and I may be at 6000 or less where I can find them.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

Most recent:  Rawls.  Ryan Mahaffey and I played at 6800yds if I remember correctly.  The wind was nuts however.  That affects my analysis greatly.  #17 at 594yds was driver-7i if that gives you an idea.  

Home course:  Formerly Palmetto GC.  I played a 50-50 split of red and white tees.  Our reds are usually at 64-6500yds (and can be stretched for the Am to 6700), the whites at 6100-6200.  I enjoyed the course equally at both yardages and honestly couldn't tell a huge difference score-wise in 30+ rounds over two years.

I do think that these questions are sort of moot though.  I'd like to make a quick observation re: "reachability" at Streamsong on a course that was "unreachable" at 6698.  Here's a hypothetical course: 6540yds (4 par 3's at 170, 10 par 4's at 390, 4 par 5's at 490).  That course illustrates how "short" holes can be and still cause add up the yardage.

Let's try again on a hypothetical course.  6580yds (Par 3's at 125, 160, 180, 215..Par 4's at 310x2, 340x2, 390x2, 420x2, 460x2...Par 5's at 470, 490, 530, 570).  

Only 40 yds difference in yardage, but some holes are uber short, some are uber long.  No one is going to complain about the lengths of the holes on the first course.  You going to get some whiners on the second hypothetical course, no doubt.  They aren't going to be anle to reach up to 6 or so of those holes, but the course measures less than 6600yds!

This illustrates why total length--to me--is a measurement in ego and marketing acumen.  

[Tim Pitner]

Commonground GC, 6721.

[Dave Givnish]

Desert Forest 6450, 6850, 7050 - split between shorter tees in winter and longer tees in summer
Farmington (VA) 6600 (par 70)

[Matthew Petersen]

Have to agree with Ben that there's a lot more than total yardage that goes into choosing which tees are best.

The renovated Papago in Phoenix has 4 sets of tees. The white (middle-forward) set seem pretty reasonable for a lot of people ... 6300 yards, slope of 122. But check the yardages for the par 3s from that set ... 195, 195, 146 (over water), and 214. That's three of your four par 3s with tees that are just irrationally long for most people who would typically play at 6300y.

[John Ezekowitz]

Because I would rather read GCA and procrastinate than finish my thesis, I turned the responses in this thread into a distribution histogram:



It looks like there is a slightly fat left tail, which I believe makes sense. Compared to all golfers, I would bet GCA skews older and better than average.

[Doug Wright]

1.  Where did you play your most recent round of golf, and what yardage did you play from?

Southern Dunes GC Maricopa AZ (par 72):
Round 1: Gold 6889 yards 72.6/131
Round 2: Blue 6493  yards 70.6/126


2.  What's your home course, and what yardage do you normally play from?

Denver CC (par 71)

In order I play most often from the composite #1/#2 tees (~40%); next most often would be the #1 tees (~30%) and the #2 tees (~30%)

 1                   6,893   71.8   136.0
 1/2 Combo   6,648   70.7   134.0
 2                   6,379   69.6   133.0
 

[Bruce Bearer]

Last - LACC South; White tees, 5957 yds, par 70
Home - LACC North; White tees, 6466 yds, par 70
Other home - Bandon; any tees that make sense that day, mostly Green

[Michael Essig]

Last two rounds were my home courses at Suncadia in "fun" tournament played from White tees at 6223 and 6159.  
Probably play about 60% White/40% Blue tees.  Blues are 6743 and 6641.

Like many have said before, I choose tees based on my playing partners and weather conditions.  As a result, I play as much as I do from the White teens because it commonly blows pretty hard in the spring and early summer (15-20 mph) and because I play a lot with my son who until the end of last summer was incapable of playing anything over 6500.

Away from home, I generally am looking for something sub-6700 (becuase I am typically in good weather on vacation) in the 6400-6600 range.  I do no like going past 6700; and I have no problem playing a 6000 yard course (I just assume I will shoot a better score at the shorter distance).

Moving forward = better score.  Moving backwards = frustration

Lastly, playing tees too far back means nothing but driver from the tees, except maybe on par 5s because I know it is a three-shoter, so I will hit 3 wood.  By playing forward tees, I think more about the tee shot because I have an option.  From tees further back, there is no option - it is always a driver.  

[Brent Hutto]

Goodness, I'd have to play a 4,500 yard course not to need driver on the Par 4's and Par 5's. I settle for playing up enough not to need driver on any of the Par 3's.

[Brett Hochstein]

1. Cal Club, Back (second from the longest, the Venturis) 6797.  With its proper course setup though it plays much more manageably.

2. Home Course--Does not compute.  With my relatively short distance though, especially with the irons, I usually like anything from 6200-6500.  I never shy away from shorter courses and almost always had fun on the quirky old short clubs in the UK.  In many ways I prefer that--lots more thinking and lots more second shot clubbing variety.  It gets tiresome and boring when you are bashing a 3 wood at the green every time. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Home Courses:

1. Eagles Nest 6150y 69.0/119

2. Tuscany Falls- 3 nines

    Falls/Palms 6147y 67.7/119
    Palms/Lakes 6246y 68.6/124
    Lakes/Falls  6031y  67.5/120

Last course:  Corte Bella   6055y 68.2/117

[Mickey Boland]

My home course Harlingen CC plays at about 6550 from the back tees I normally play.  Men's tees ahead of that are about 6200 I would imagine.  I routinely look for 6500-6600 when playing other courses, unless elevation makes a difference.  I'm at sea level at home.

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